Dragon Age Origin-Heart of Stone

[TrueMetis]

Bhelen wants to reform the caste system but is completely self-interested, so he can't be relied on to aid the Grey Wardens.

That's not the understanding I got, he very much does not want to reform the caste system because it allows him to rule. That's why in the epilogue he stages a fake assassination to give himself a reason to dissolve the assembly and gain sole power. What he wants is to use the Castless as canon fodder against the darkspawn.

Harrowmont is much more honourable but because of that he is also a conservative traditionalist who will keep the unfair caste system in place as he doesn't believe he has the right to overturn ancient traditions, but him being a stickler for the rules means he can be relied on to help the Grey Wardens.

Again this isn't what I got from Harrowmont, I actually read him as being a traditionalist, but perfectly willing to compromise if necessary. After all "I prefer to be known as a just and compassionate king. 'Strong' too often comes to mean 'tyrannical'."

But then the epilogue whatever you choose pretty well ignores how the characters actually acted during the game. Harrowmont acts like a petty tyrant and Bhelen acts as though he were incredibly gracious and noble. Reminder that it was the latter person that killed one brother and framed the other for his murder.

The epilogue also makes Bhelen out to be more competent than he actually is, but then apparently a lot of people were surprised when the slimy little weasel betrayed you in the DN origin story.

Ignoring the epilogue Harrowmont is the way to go. Considering the epilogue. They both suck and I wish there was a third option. But the Epilogue is fucking stupid, and contradicts stuff in other games.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Okay. This helps me understand a bit more. It is still a very frustrating omission.
One thing that might have been interesting/fun/whatever is if you could actually, well, make demands/graciously ask favors of a candidate in return for your support. Not exactly rewrite the whole agenda, but nudge the overton window a little and get some token concessions in return for the river of blood and darkspawn you had to wade through to solve this.

Lyrium-addled merchant 2020!
They're still all better options than what I finally got for president. -____-

[Wargriffin]

Ironically I had a long debate on this on another forum when Chuck first did the review.

Hilariously the conclusion we came to is you really have no reason to side with Harrowmont once you wrap your brain around two factors even using Chuck's reasoning for siding with Harrowmont

A: Dwarf Politics revolve around Whose the bigger bastard, so playing morally offended doesn't work since Each one will reveal thier underhanded side... and Harrowmont is the more incompetent of the two. As an outsider you can't assume either is honorable cause Honor is counter-intuitive of dwarf politics

and B: You're not really supporting Harrowmont, You're supporting the assemblies puppet king basically Harrowmont's traits don't really matter cause you will effectively be dealing with the Largely conservative body of the Dwarven assembly

Basically you as an outsider are stumbling into a squabble between the King's apparent only heir vs Harrowmont's claim 'one that is only backed up by his word that even his allies find dubious' That Bhelen shouldn't be king and the assembly trying to keep its power.

and even using Chuck's logic

You are better off with taking the coin flip on Bhelen then the Door Prize with Harrowmont

since its

if Bhelen keeps his word = Open Draft to the Casteless meaning you'll be both getting a fairly large number of Dwarf reinforcements for the Battle at hand plus A revitalized Dwarf military presence on what is effectively the frontline against the darkspawn

versus

The Assembly is gonna send you whatever Warrior caste they can spare, but since the story paints the Dwarves on the verge of collapse, you pretty much are going through alot of trouble for at best a token show of appreciation.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Well, I don't think we can certainly say dwarven politics are bastard based, that honor is counter-intuitive, or that Harrowmont is more incompetent. Bhelen isn't a very good machiovellan schemer if just about everyone and their waitress knows he's the one who got his siblings killed.

My internal reasoning for my character, if Bhelen is the progressive asshole he's supposed to be, is to side with Harrowmont because at least Harrowmont is honest about his political intentions. If Bhelen is such a success-at-any-cost backstabber, he could be just claiming to support this progressive change to marshal an army of populist rabble who he will discard like so much fools gold when his political strength is solidified.

[Wargriffin]

Except again Harrowmont's intentions don't matter... cause he isn't the one calling the shots and everybody and the waitress knows this

All Harrowmont is the Mascot/Figurehead who only has as much power that his weak will allows him


Bhelen may be an asshole... He is one asshole, His assholery stops and ends with him

He isn't representing the Group of assholes who lead us to this quagmire to begin with.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

But what suggests Harrowmont is a puppet? You don't need an absolute monarchy to be a real monarch. It just seems that the dwarven king is a position like Prime Minister, where you have a plurality of the power rather than a stranglehold on it.

[TrueMetis]

Harrowmont is the more incompetent of the two? It took him literally nothing more than going "I wanna be king" to get enough support to compete with the only remaining son of the former king. The son that has probably been scheming for years.

Though since Bhelens incredibly fucking stupid plan only succeeded because of ridiculous luck (Seriously both the DN and Trian should have been surrounded by hundreds of troops, and there's no fucking way he should have been able to time things to show up just after Trian was killed) he's not been scheming very well, he's just lucky and the people around him stupid, Except IIRC Harrowmont who questions what happened, so he's probably mostly relying on prestige of being the only remaining son of the king to make him king. Harrowmont is also known as one of the few people who can get the assembly to compromise.

Also Bhelen is hardly just one asshole, much of his powerbase is made up of murder's, thieves, cutthroats, (literal and figurative), and political backstabbers. The only reason this deadlock happens is because Bhelen is a murderous little prick willing to do anything to get his way while Harrowmont isn't. Bhelen can't win cause he is not in fact even slightly competent, as shown throughout the DN origin story (but again people apparently didn't pick up on that?) and Harrowmont can't cause he doesn't have the resources to without sinking to Bhelen's level.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

[Persuasion]-The caste system isn't absolute, considering Paragons found new houses and the Legion of the Dead. Isn't there room for some reform while holding on to the best of your traditions?
[Intimidate] Listen, you unshaved lawn ornament, I put the sodding crown on your head and I can take both of them off.

[Madner Kami]

Harrowmont is the more incompetent of the two? It took him literally nothing more than going "I wanna be king" to get enough support to compete with the only remaining son of the former king. The son that has probably been scheming for years.

Though since Bhelens incredibly fucking stupid plan only succeeded because of ridiculous luck (Seriously both the DN and Trian should have been surrounded by hundreds of troops, and there's no fucking way he should have been able to time things to show up just after Trian was killed) he's not been scheming very well, he's just lucky and the people around him stupid, Except IIRC Harrowmont who questions what happened, so he's probably mostly relying on prestige of being the only remaining son of the king to make him king. Harrowmont is also known as one of the few people who can get the assembly to compromise.

Also Bhelen is hardly just one asshole, much of his powerbase is made up of murder's, thieves, cutthroats, (literal and figurative), and political backstabbers. The only reason this deadlock happens is because Bhelen is a murderous little prick willing to do anything to get his way while Harrowmont isn't. Bhelen can't win cause he is not in fact even slightly competent, as shown throughout the DN origin story (but again people apparently didn't pick up on that?) and Harrowmont can't cause he doesn't have the resources to without sinking to Bhelen's level.

Bhelen is a backstabber and schemer in a sea of backstabbers and schemers, while Harrowmont is a traditionalist with no experience in underhanded action. Also, Bhelen is the guy who will raise an army and free massive amounts of reserves and resources when he gets into power, while Harrowmont offers you the status quo of a dying nation on it's last breath.

Also, looking at it from a different perspective, at best, Harrowmont is going to send a force that is just large enough to fit the promise and leave a diminished force at the actual frontline of the war, when his fighting forces are weak to begin with. At worst, Bhelen is not going to send anyone, but will do his best to strengthen the forces fighting the Darkspawn in the heart of their territory.

There's really only one logical choice, given the situation that the dwarven kingdom and Ferelden (and maybe the world at large) are in and this is undoubtably Bhelen.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Harrowmont DOES have political experience though. There's a good reason he was the dying king's preferred choice. I will admit, though, that I'm coming at this more from an angle of "how is Bhelen even good for the dwarves?" than "who is better for the Grey Wardens".

...here's a thought. Why can't you offer deals AS a representative of the Grey Wardens, given that you and Alastair are effectively the only ones in Ferelden? It's not much right now, but once the group gets up to strength again, it could be a long-term benefit. I think the Grey Wardens agreeing to send forces to aid the Legion of the Dead in peacetimes would be a great way of thanking the dwarves for helping them solve this surfacer problem.