Another School Shooting, this time in Florida

[Fixer]

Darth Wedgius and Fuzzy Necromancer. Please keep the debate civil. No personal attacks.

The guns debate is one that gets very heated, and we like to keep things as hands off as possible in the news forum. Up until now everyone has handled a highly contentious issue with very opposed views well enough.

This is a polite reminder for everyone in this thread.

[SuccubusYuri]

I'm curious, why are people against having armed guards at schools? Most malls have an armed guard or a local police officer roaming around. Banks usually have them, or at least the bigger ones do. Most government buildings have them. Airports went way overboard on security. Essentially what we have here is a soft target that terrorists are attacking - why not protect them?

I am personally unfamiliar with a school without an armed guard and security system. I live in bumfuck nowhere and my old H.S. has not only a police officer stationed at it, but a gating system that requires you to check in, you get a pass for the exact wing you need to visit, which you must present when asked, and should you overstay would be asked to leave by said stationed officer, and only when it's hanging around your neck does the gate buzz open like a frickin HBO prison. I have seen the same thing visiting my brothers places of work over the past decade.

Most people also recognize the "good guy with a gun" scenario is a power fantasy, and not a practical solution. Though most people are under the false impression that police officers are obligated to protect you. Both things seem to be clashing right now.
http://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/ ... index.html

[Antiboyscout]

Most people also recognize the "good guy with a gun" scenario is a power fantasy, and not a practical solution. Though most people are under the false impression that police officers are obligated to protect you. Both things seem to be clashing right now.
http://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/ ... index.html

Clashing? Not so much. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/c ... 48784.html

So many stories of heroism that must be ignored for this argument. The story of the gym teacher is especially tragic as he had a CCW but was not allowed to carry in the gun free zone.

Another problem is that schools are not just "gun free" all "weapons" are banned. From knives (ok) down to pepper spray (even for teachers). Current crisis training involves throwing a book at the shooter. This doesn't seem to be sufficient.

[Darth Wedgius]

...yeah I really doubt you are arguing in good faith as much as playing bigotry judo. I mentioned sexism and racism as causes of mass shootings, so that means that I must be the really sexist, racist person.

Here you attacked an argument I hadn't made. That is what is known as a "straw man argument."

what seems to me to be racism and sexism on Fuzzy's part,

Indeed I said that. But I didn't say it was because of your mention of sexism or racism, did I? Maybe you're a bit "fuzzy" about these things.

Let me be a bit clearer in case you're still having trouble. You also mentioned "white culture" and "toxic masculinity."

I'll leave aside your reluctance to go to a region of the world less tainted by white culture. Your happiness is your own affair and not really important to me. Lives are complex, at least after the nappy stage, and just because I can't understand your reluctance to emigrate to what must be veritable paradises such as... Well, I'm sure they're out there. Anyway, I'm not you, I haven't lived your life, and you no doubt have your own reasons for what is really important to you. I was just curious, because it seems so obvious to me. I certainly don't mean to imply hypocrisy on your part.

I'll re-state the important part again: have you connected most of these shootings to racism, sexism, xenophobia, cis-het-normativity, neurotypical-normativity, or dextronormativity? I made up that last one, but the left-handed have certainly suffered. Though I don't mean to deny the ambidextrous their lived experiences, either.

Maybe there is a part of "white culture" at work. The majority of mass shooters are white, after all. Though that sounds like blaming a lot of violent crime on "black culture," in that correlation does not imply causation. And certainly these are men, but correlation still doesn't imply causation.

Do you have anything causal to connect these, or is your reasoning / "reasoning" similar to BLM's, where if a muslim man shoots up a gay nightclub, capitalism, the patriarchy and white supremacy are the logical culprits? Since that point I've accepted that BLM is mostly entertainment, and there's always room for more entertainment. But you seemed pretty certain that these were the root causes, and you seem a decently intelligent man. Surely you wouldn't make such broad assertions without proper reasoning?

[Darth Wedgius]

How about bullet-proof vests and less-lethal guns (taser guns, rubber bullets, CS grenades) for teachers who volunteer, kept in safes locked with a key held by the teacher? The locks might also need a code entered in the administrators' offices, but that part of the locking mechanism should fail-open if the power is cut. The teacher's key can be mechanical and not rely on power. And bonuses for veterans to become teachers.

[excalibur]

Bulletproof vest would indeed help but they can only do so much. Tasers and other less than lethal weapons are not as accurate and don't always stop the threat.

[Fixer]

I've handed Darth Wedgius a topic ban for ignoring the previous notice. Please keep it civil folks.

[Admiral X]

So many stories of heroism that must be ignored for this argument. The story of the gym teacher is especially tragic as he had a CCW but was not allowed to carry in the gun free zone.

I didn't see this in the link you posted (just a reference to a picture of a "concealed carry vest" on his Facebook page), is there another source for this?

How about bullet-proof vests

Bulky and unneccessary, and only useful against certain kinds of guns. It would have been completely useless against an AR-15 or any rifle, really. Even some pistols can penetrate such vests, unless you go all out and give them the combat armor that infantry wears.

youtu.be/zapDoI_q3JM
That last one he uses, a Tokarev, isn't exactly a super awesome gun or anything either. It was actually replaced fairly quickly after WWII was over.

and less-lethal guns (taser guns, rubber bullets, CS grenades) for teachers who volunteer,

Not as accurate or as effective at stopping someone as a regular gun, and just as much of a hazard should the teacher lose control of it/students get a hold of it.

kept in safes locked with a key held by the teacher? The locks might also need a code entered in the administrators' offices, but that part of the locking mechanism should fail-open if the power is cut. The teacher's key can be mechanical and not rely on power. And bonuses for veterans to become teachers.

If you keep them locked up, then they are effectively inaccessible if and when they are actually needed.

[excalibur]

The PR nightmare of teachers wearing Level IV body armor might not go so well in the next PTO meeting

[Antiboyscout]

So many stories of heroism that must be ignored for this argument. The story of the gym teacher is especially tragic as he had a CCW but was not allowed to carry in the gun free zone.

I didn't see this in the link you posted (just a reference to a picture of a "concealed carry vest" on his Facebook page), is there another source for this?

Sorry not really. Only that article and hearsay. He was a Navy Reservist
http://www.wtol.com/story/37523143/gofu ... l-shooting