Empire Strikes Back

[MyUserName]

Not To derail this topic, but I appreciate Chucks point about giving the Bad Guys a Victory or so to setup drama and stakes.
I was on other boards discussing the season Finale of Star Wars Rebels, pointing out that the last batch of episodes failed to impress due to just how easy it was for the rebels to steamroll over the Empire.

Especially when you consider this is Thrawn that is directly leading the troops, with the full might of the empire behind him, and many of the Empires best.

As for Ozzel, I thought it was made quite clear by the script the guy was a tool. Also points to Needa for trying to stick up for him, that took some huge manberries.

And on a somewhat related to the movie note, anyone here read Dark Rendezvous, The writer tried to find a balance between prequel yoda and the prankster yoda we initially saw in ESB. It's actually a surprisingly good entry in the EU.

Also somewhat related, Theres an alternate universe comic series where Han is with Luke on Degobah and catches on to Yoda's scam right away. "Takes a Con-man to spot one." He says.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

As a kid IV and VI were my co-favorites, and I still love Episodes IV with its freshness and energy (and its ability to stand on its own) and Episode VI for its action and themes. But it's clear that The Empire Strikes Back is easily the most sophisticated script/film in the franchise, and I really don't see that changing anytime soon.

High-ranking imperial officers pretty much reach redshirt level in this movie, and I love the subtle dark comedy to it, from the silent reactions to Vader choking someone to an asteroid wiping out a command deck during a conference without anyone batting an eye.

Vader killing Ozzel, obviously it establishes (for the audience as well as in-universe) the fear and total subservience that Vader demands. I always took Ozzel as making a genuine mistake, but even if he hadn't, his attitude is what did him in. He's quickly established as an arrogant man who is not only careless but has enough self-assurance to contradict Vader. Vader was going to make Ozzel into an example at the first opportunity.

Needa, I think he would have had a decent chance of surviving on a better day.

[Wargriffin]

Ozzel got executed for pure incompetence and Disobeying orders

The scene with Piett already established that Ozzel will dismiss good advice strictly cause he outranks you.

Ozzel coming out of hyperspace right on top of the planet was clearly not the intended plan as Veers tries to defend Ozzel's decision... implying Vader gave strict orders before retiring to his chamber.

Ozzel had it coming... Needa's death is probably the one most ascribe 'Vader chokes everybody temper' is drawn from

I'm really struggling to come to grips with this. Ozzel didn't even dismiss Piett, he merely pointed out that existence of a settlement isn't proof that there's a major rebel base there. He said, "I want proof, not leads!" The main thing that comes up in that scene is that Vader is absolutely certain (likely because of Force magic) and Ozzel dares to question that certainty, even slightly. Then Vader is already annoyed with him so he's ready to murder the instant something else goes wrong.

I mean, Ozzel is a high-ranking officer in an evil empire so it's possible he wasn't a stand-up guy to begin with, but I don't think he does anything even slightly wrong here.

Except he does Dismiss Piett...

Piett points out that the planet would make a good hiding spot... Ozzel dismisses the assumption with it could just be a random smuggler or Pirate hold essentially saying that it wasn't worth looking into

Saying he wants 'Proof not Leads' is stupid since a hunt like this you go VALIDATE Leads to see if they have any merit... Geez we're looking for a bunch of people laying low... and we have data on what looks to be a secluded out of the way stronghold.

If Ozzel was a decent commander, He'd have jumped on the first real lead they got since his alternative was sit around and wait.

Ozzel's basically sitting there waiting for the base that has SUCK IT EMPIRE spray painted on the roof to show up.

[MyUserName]

I just finished part two. It's interesting Chuck didn't like Thank the Maker. The Wars Comic story, Printed in the Star Wars Tales series, where vader laments about his memories that seeing C3-P0 brings out in him.

I think he may have read a summary of it, because at no point is Vader moved to tears. Emotion yes, at remembering that he built C3-P0 to help his mom and of her words that "if you're going to create something, you have to take responsibility for it." Which I always took as having a double meaning since he was about to meet his son for the first time, and he was also affixing the emotion to the droid he built as well. It can also be interpreted, we never know for certain, that he sent C3-P0 back to simultaneously honor his Mothers sentiment, but also rid himself of the emotions it was bringing out in him.

I think that's the thing with good Vader stories, they show you the events, but never really let you get too deep into his head. They never let him have internal dialogue as to keep his mystique. That's why I think the times writers have tried to give Vader internal dialogue, as in Shadows of the Empire, it ended up weaker for it.

I also never really lamented ANY of the changes. Maybe it's just because I never thought more of them, at the time, than being "More STAR WARS! YAY!"

In hindsight, the only one I have beef with, is the same one everyone else has beef with. Greedo shooting first. Not for any real character changes it brings, but because damn was that done very clumsily.

[Fixer]

Had always thought at the end, Piett have been told that he was not allowed to fail again. Just as the Millenium Falcon leapt away you could see the terror in his eyes as he realises that Vader now has a reason to kill him. However Vader is so distracted and conflicted over his son as he escapes that he forgets that.
It was the first hint that there was still a spark of the the good man left in him.

I love Empire Strikes Back. While ANH introduced the universe, ESB really built what we know of the galaxy and characters. The concept of the light side and dark side was revealed here, the incredible themes with the Imperial March. Vader's ruthless pursuit and command, the interactions between Luke, Han and Leia. The feeling of a vast galaxy with so few places to hide from ever present Empire.
Even the Millenium Falcon earned it's awesome-yet-unreliable reputation here.

While the original Star Wars is a near perfect standalone movie and the ur-example of the heroes journey, Empire Strikes Back is what made the Star Wars universe.

[GandALF]

I disagree the whole "controls your actions/obeys your commands" thing being a paradox. I'd argue it has more to do with philosophical capital-T Truth, it's not in conflict with free will.

I.e it's a mathematical truth that 2+2=4. There's nothing you can do to change that, you are bound to that law no matter what you do, so it in a way controls your actions. However you can that use that truth to build a bridge, so it also obeys your commands. If you build a bridge on the basis that 2+2=5, then the bridge will just collapse, as it's mathematical truth that binds the bridge together in a sense.

In terms of the Force its moral truths. The Sith try to impose their will on the Force like the galaxy but they tend towards self-destruction like a 2+2=5 bridge. The rebels are able to overcome insurmountable odds because the Truth is that right makes might, their cause is just and they are on the side of Truth. I.e the Force is with them.

[jadenova]

After watching the prequels it makes me wonder how much Yoda wanted to tell Luke about his father just so Luke couldn't make the same mistakes Anakin did.

[ChrisTheLovableJerk]

After watching the prequels it makes me wonder how much Yoda wanted to tell Luke about his father just so Luke couldn't make the same mistakes Anakin did.

A deleted scene from ROTJ, an extended version of Yoda's death, reveals that Yoda forbade Obi-Wan from telling Luke the whole truth. I suppose that if Luke knew the reality of what happened from the beginning he would be too afraid to take any sort of action against his father or fear that he would become like his father.

Obi-Wan probably wanted to tell Luke more about Anakin and the rest of the Jedi, and slowly ease him into the truth, but the events of ANH didn't allow him much room for that.

Yoda probably didn't think Luke was ready for the truth either when he was training him.

[Sir Will]

Han's character development. He does care!

Development destroyed in The Force Awakens tyvm. Not as bad as Luke though.

[Rocketboy1313]

Han's character development. He does care!

Development destroyed in The Force Awakens tyvm. Not as bad as Luke though.

Huh?

Can you contextualize what you are saying?