Empire Strikes Back

[Jonathan101]

In regards to the extra lines of dialogue between vader and the emperor, yes it is annoying but in light of episode 3 I think it is salvagable. The lines go some thing like this: Emperopr: "Clearly he is the son of Anikin Skywalker"

Vader: "How is that possible?"

Emperor: "Search your feelings, you know it to be true."

I think there's some ambiguity to how this can be read. Yeah it could be Vader getting the news for the first time, but as chuck notes, that doesn't work, because the whole story is vader's obsession to find luke.

But if you remember that Episode 3 ends with the emperor telling vader that he killed padme, and her unborn children, it makes more sense. Vader even seems confused about it at the time, as though he suspected the emperor was lying to him. For Luke to be alive, confirms that the emperor did lie to him, and Vader's "How is that possible?" can actually be read as a subtle accusation to the emperor himself, which the emperor plays off. So yeah, still not ideal, but it can work without having to assume vader is playing dumb.

But the redubbing of Bobba Fett's lines with Tengu Morrison, yeah I agree, that sucked, especially because his delivery sucked. Fett's new voice, more than greedo shooting first or dumb vader or Hayden Christenson episode 6, is what really kills the special editions for me. And Chuck is the only other person I've ever seen zero in on it, as everyone else gave it a soft pass for the sake of continuity.

Thing is, in both version of the dialogue, Palpatine seems (or more likely pretends to be) unaware that Vader is actively looking for Luke, since in both versions he starts the conversation with "We have a new enemy".

So, while the changed dialogue is distracting and unnecessary, the message is still the same- Vader has been spending the whole movie obsessively searching for Luke, then the Emperor calls him out of the blue in order to make the veiled threat- "I know what you are doing Vader". And Vader in both cases plays dumb and innocent, even though the end of Empire pretty clearly states that he wants Luke to help him destroy the Emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son. RotJ nixes that idea because the Emperor intervenes personally and keeps Vader on a tight leash, but Empire- even before the prequels, even before any special editions- pretty clearly establishes that he wants to overthrow his master,

Also, I don't think its fair to say that he thought Palpatine lied to him- for all Palpatine knew, the kid(s) really DID die in childbirth after all; not like he was actually there or anything. Vader had plenty of reasons to hate Palpatine already by that point since Palpatine had lied to him and manipulated him his entire friggin' life and turned him into a mass murderer, and even before Padme dies Anakin is ranting to her that he is more powerful than Palpatine and can overthrow him and rule alongside HER. Finding out Luke is alive is, for Vader...well, its a new hope (sic).

[AllanO]

Also, I don't think its fair to say that he thought Palpatine lied to him- for all Palpatine knew, the kid(s) really DID die in childbirth after all; not like he was actually there or anything.

At least the way the Palpatine tells Vader that Padme is dead in the Revenge of the Sith is simply stating it ("it seems you killed her", not saying something "my agents inform me..." or "I felt it in the Force..."), which heavily implies (to me anyway) that Palpatine is claiming he knew Padme was dead because he saw her (presumably still pregnant) body (the seeming being about what killed her).

So the lie is not that Padme is dead (not a lie assuming Palpatine had reason to believe that, but it could be a lie, you can tell a lie and it can turn out to be true, lying is about the teller's intention not the facts) and more about how and how certainly Palpatine knew this. Palpatine pretty clearly intended Vader believe that he (Palpatine) have direct knowledge of her death and so direct knowledge of whether or not she had squirted out the twins etc., but Palpatine had no such direct knowledge and Luke's appearance reveals that lie at least.

[Jonathan101]

Also, I don't think its fair to say that he thought Palpatine lied to him- for all Palpatine knew, the kid(s) really DID die in childbirth after all; not like he was actually there or anything.

At least the way the Palpatine tells Vader that Padme is dead in the Revenge of the Sith is simply stating it ("it seems you killed her", not saying something "my agents inform me..." or "I felt it in the Force..."), which heavily implies (to me anyway) that Palpatine is claiming he knew Padme was dead because he saw her (presumably still pregnant) body (the seeming being about what killed her).

So the lie is not that Padme is dead (not a lie assuming Palpatine had reason to believe that, but it could be a lie, you can tell a lie and it can turn out to be true, lying is about the teller's intention not the facts) and more about how and how certainly Palpatine knew this. Palpatine pretty clearly intended Vader believe that he (Palpatine) have direct knowledge of her death and so direct knowledge of whether or not she had squirted out the twins etc., but Palpatine had no such direct knowledge and Luke's appearance reveals that lie at least.

I'm a little confused...do you think Palaptine knew that Luke and Leia were born or not?

If he knew, then yes it was (arguably) a lie or omission, though he was honest about the cause of death more or less.

If he didn't, then he didn't lie at all- he must simply have heard of her death somehow and deduced (not incorrectly) that she died because Vader strangled her.

(its possible he got a hold of her autopsy report and read cause of death listed as "lost the will to live", but in such a case I can see him thinking "Da fuck? Vader strangled her! Thats what killed her! Did that fucking droid doctor get its M.D. in melodrama? I'm telling him he did it, godammit")

[AllanO]

I'm a little confused...do you think Palaptine knew that Luke and Leia were born or not?

I am pretty sure he did not know the twins were born, as it seems like he would have hunted them down if he knew they were alive ( either because of force potential or as something else to hold over Vader).

I am not even clear Palpatine knew that Padme was dead at all, at that point (when did that scene happen?), eventually he confirmed Padme was dead (the state funeral was probably a give away), but during the Darth Vader awakens scene Palpatine may have just said that Padme was dead without a shred of evidence one way or the other.

Anyway the lie I am sure of is simple, Palpatine as much as said he knew exactly what happened to Padme. He did not (and he knew he did not) know exactly what happened to Padme, so he was lying when he implied he knew exactly what happened to Padme.

[bronnt]

It took them weeks to get to Cloud City; they were not actually ON Cloud City for any more than a day, possibly even hours.

From context it does seem like their time on Cloud City is at least a few days-more than one, anyway. But the big thing is the travel time. There's probably a few days spent running around hiding from the Empire in the asteroid belt as well. It ultimately comes down to how much you think the Falcon was carrying in terms of rations. Since it's a cargo freighter with only three mouths to feed, they had plenty of capacity, it's just a question about how much they actually had when they left Hoth.

[Jonathan101]

I'm a little confused...do you think Palaptine knew that Luke and Leia were born or not?

I am pretty sure he did not know the twins were born, as it seems like he would have hunted them down if he knew they were alive ( either because of force potential or as something else to hold over Vader).

I am not even clear Palpatine knew that Padme was dead at all, at that point (when did that scene happen?), eventually he confirmed Padme was dead (the state funeral was probably a give away), but during the Darth Vader awakens scene Palpatine may have just said that Padme was dead without a shred of evidence one way or the other.

Anyway the lie I am sure of is simple, Palpatine as much as said he knew exactly what happened to Padme. He did not (and he knew he did not) know exactly what happened to Padme, so he was lying when he implied he knew exactly what happened to Padme.

No Palpatine says "It seems" that is what happened. He did not claim at all to know "exactly" what happened; and even then, had he done so, it would have been accurate.

Its pretty likely that Palpatine had some sort of source that confirmed Padmes fate for him; he might even have just sensed her fate through the Force. Lying about that with absolutely zero knowledge would have been dumb as hell since if she was alive what would that have gained him? The most probable explanation by far is that he really did somehow know she was dead and really did think that Vader killed her in anger (which is mostly correct). Nowhere in the movies is it ever said that he lied to Vader- it is pure Fanon.

It took them weeks to get to Cloud City; they were not actually ON Cloud City for any more than a day, possibly even hours.

From context it does seem like their time on Cloud City is at least a few days-more than one, anyway. But the big thing is the travel time. There's probably a few days spent running around hiding from the Empire in the asteroid belt as well. It ultimately comes down to how much you think the Falcon was carrying in terms of rations. Since it's a cargo freighter with only three mouths to feed, they had plenty of capacity, it's just a question about how much they actually had when they left Hoth.

The context is that the Falcon shows up, Lando welcomes them and shows them around the place, and C-3PO is attacked by Stormtroopers within minutes of them landing.

Later on we see Leia upset that 3PO is still missing and she thinks something must be up because he's been gone too long to have simply gotten lost; Han doesn't disagree but is more relaxed and tells her he'll ask Lando about it, and shortly after Chewbacca (who noticed something happened to 3PO immediately and had presumably been searching for him since) shows up with his broken body. Lando appears and invites them to dinner, which is where the trap is sprung, and Lando tells them that the Empire arrived right before they did.

The idea that any of this takes place over more than a few HOURS at most is extremely dubious, let alone a few days. Han wouldn't have been so chill about 3PO being missing if several days had passed, and the Empire wouldn't have let them hang around for days for no good reason if they had been there all along. It like took them weeks to GET to Cloud City but their time on there was day at most, meaning that Lando had very, very little time to think about what he needed to do.

[Admiral X]

But while the editing may have intercut the two stories, is it possible that the part with the Empire chasing the Millennium Falcon took place over a much longer stretch of time?

[Jonathan101]

But while the editing may have intercut the two stories, is it possible that the part with the Empire chasing the Millennium Falcon took place over a much longer stretch of time?

Its not only possible but extremely likely, since they didn't have a working hyperdrive. This also means that Luke got at least a few weeks, if not even months, to train with Yoda, about as long as the Flacon would have been evading the Imperials (makes Vader killing Needa a bit more understandable perhaps- they've been for ages and he LOSES them? Choke 'em). Also explains how Vader could contact the Bounty Hunters and have them come out to meet his fleet in the middle of nowhere- they too had time to get his message and show up.

But everything on Cloud City took place over the span of a day at most. The timeline would be very jarring otherwise.

[CrypticMirror]

But everything on Cloud City took place over the span of a day at most. The timeline would be very jarring otherwise.

I dunno, for Chewie to get even C3P0's torso connected up seems like it ought to have taken at least a long weekend, so I think the torture and imprisonment part of their stay in CC is at least a week or so.

[Jonathan101]

But everything on Cloud City took place over the span of a day at most. The timeline would be very jarring otherwise.

I dunno, for Chewie to get even C3P0's torso connected up seems like it ought to have taken at least a long weekend, so I think the torture and imprisonment part of their stay in CC is at least a week or so.

I seriously doubt repairing C-3PO would take him more than a few hours at most. I mean, for a start, he got him back online almost immediately after he set about repairing him.