Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night

[FakeGeekGirl]

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/d541.php

Oh boy. This episode.

Chuck had all the same objections as me yet scored it higher than I would have - I always thought that was interesting. Maybe I just get worked up over one or more of those objections? That's probably it. It's a great review that savages this episode in all the right places.

I dislike this episode so vehemently. There are so many elements of it I hate. It makes all of Dukat's attempts to seduce Kira even more uncomfortable in hindsight, it handles a sensitive issue with uncharacteristic clumsiness, misuses a historical term with very real, very tragic implications, and has terrible use of time travel. To say nothing of the fact that after promising Sisko she wouldn't intervene, Kira almost immediately joins the resistance in the past and eventually attempts something of CW version of Barry Allen proportions to mess with the timeline. Why Kira. (All though ... this could make an interesting AU fanfic ...)

Oh and I'm going to say this because ... I didn't see anyone here taking this attitude (thankfully) but I have encountered a lot of fans who think this way so I am going to say this now.

Meru is not a bad person, and Dukat is not some kind of nice guy for taking care of her family. If I were in a situation where I was in charge of taking care of my little second cousins (I'm an only child but I grew up close to my cousins so how I feel about them is how most people feel about their nieces and nephews) during an alien invasion, and they were at risk of starving or dying of any sickness that came along, and then I was separated from them and told I couldn't go back to them anyway, and then this person with power to change it came along and said I could guarantee them food, shelter, and medicine if I just slept with him ... Hell yeah I'd do it. I'd blow every Cardassian in the quadrant to protect those children, and they're not even my own children. Of course she convinces herself she loves him - she's making the best of a bad situation and Dukat's behavior is (again, very creepily) seemingly calculated to induce Stockholm Syndrome, with him deliberately setting himself up as this nice alternative to the other Cardassians, which also subtly reinforces the danger that his target is in. This is not an equal relationship, at all, by any definition.

This is an episode that seems somewhat popular despite all this and I can sort of see why - it is strong technically, with good performances and a tightly plotted script. But damn, did it ever leave a bad taste in my mouth.

What do you guys think? Did you like this one or agree with me it's terrible or something in-between?

[Durandal_1707]

The one where Gul Dukat, the fearsome scourge of the galaxy, takes time out of his schedule to travel across enemy lines to deliver a "Your Mom" joke.

[Dînadan]

On the issue that Chuck raises of why Kira remains in the past even after she's found her answer and ends up trying to kill Dukat, considering the Orb is powered by the Prophets and they have a nonlinear view of time perhaps the reason she isnt brought back immediately is because the Prophets knew she had to stay there to save Dukat (of course it's an assaination attempt of her own making but it's not the first time the Prophets have struggled to grasp the cause and effect nature of linear time).

Also, considering Dukat is a sort of Hitler analogue maybe he's got the same protection against time travellers that Hitler has and time travelling assassins are either doomed to fail because history says their attempt failed or because they all trip each other over before they have a chance to try.

[CrypticMirror]

The one where Gul Dukat, the fearsome scourge of the galaxy, takes time out of his schedule to travel across enemy lines to deliver a "Your Mom" joke.

I can actually picture Dukat filling out his diary and making space for just goofing off by interspersing "Become Galactic Conqueror" plans with making prank phone calls:
13:00 Hours>
Terrorize population.
14:00 hours>
Call Quarks, ask if he has a Hugh Jazz there.
15:00 hours>
Enslave entire race.
16:00 hours>
Light bag of dog poop and leave it in front of Weyoun's door.

[FakeGeekGirl]

The one where Gul Dukat, the fearsome scourge of the galaxy, takes time out of his schedule to travel across enemy lines to deliver a "Your Mom" joke.

I can actually picture Dukat filling out his diary and making space for just goofing off by interspersing "Become Galactic Conqueror" plans with making prank phone calls:
13:00 Hours>
Terrorize population.
14:00 hours>
Call Quarks, ask if he has a Hugh Jazz there.
15:00 hours>
Enslave entire race.
16:00 hours>
Light bag of dog poop and leave it in front of Weyoun's door.

Considering Weyoun's immediate reaction the next time he sees Dukat after Sacrifice of Angels was basically an immediate "Get this asshole out of my sight," I'm going to call this plausible. (Or else he realizes he should have overruled Dukat's decision not to destroy Sisko before he could get into the wormhole, but I'm going to pretend it's this one.)

[rickgriffin]

This is always the issue with making a villain TOO gray. People have an issue with thinking, oh someone is nice to sit and chat with, their horrible deeds can be overlooked. Oh that guy's so relatable, his genocidal mania must be an exaggeration. Oh he's nice to puppies, and as we all know from media real villains always KICK puppies, that's how you know.

Well, it's not like that. And it makes more sense for Kira to keep her convictions in knowing, intellectually, that Dukat is an evil man. And even if that doesn't necessarily mean she SHOULD kill him in the past for it, why would the whole pat-the-bunny episode with her mom even vaguely attempt to soften Kira on the issue? If anything, she should have, at the very end, beat herself up over having let her emotional softness cloud her judgment for a moment and prevent her from killing Dukat in the past.

Like, if the episode wrestled with THAT--that from the beginning, Dukat's transmission stoked the fires of revenge in Kira, and she resolves to timekill Dukat, uses her mother as an excuse to use the Orb of Time (swearing up and down, no, no timeline changing going on here), and fails in her mission because of her mother . . . I think the episode could have found its focus

[Durandal_1707]

This is always the issue with making a villain TOO gray. People have an issue with thinking, oh someone is nice to sit and chat with, their horrible deeds can be overlooked. Oh that guy's so relatable, his genocidal mania must be an exaggeration. Oh he's nice to puppies, and as we all know from media real villains always KICK puppies, that's how you know.

But that's the thing... when you have a three-dimensional character like Dukat prior to "Waltz", there are always going to be some people that will think they're not that bad. That's not a problem, that's realism. Because in real life, even the worst villains are going to have some followers, or else they're not much of a threat. Most people agree that Hitler was a bad person now, but at the time, there were plenty of people who supported him, both in Germany and elsewhere. Even today, you run into one once in a while (I remember getting into a fight with someone on the older version of this board, actually; I used Hitler as an analogy in some discussion, probably about Dukat, and some guy showed up and started giving a moral-relativist argument as to how Hitler wasn't as bad as he's made out to be, and how he's only villainized because the victors wrote the history books, and yadda yadda yadda).

Dukat can still be a bad man even if there are some fangirls who think he's not. He didn't have to be made into a cartoon character.

[rickgriffin]

No I agree, the problem enters when the WRITERS start falling for it. Not that they completely did, but even Chuck mentions that the writers several times feared they were making dukat TOO likable and had to scale it back lest they give the wrong impression. Stories ARE, in a way, propaganda. If Dukat was consistently shown as a super guy to be around who just happened to have committed genocide in the past but that's ALL behind him save for the genocide he may commit in the future . . . that gets integrated into the message. "Genocidal warlords can be your friend!"

With this episode, it feels like it's glossing over things that WOULD concern Kira, regardless of whether or not Dukat is acting civil today. It feels like there's some attempt at shades of forgiveness being thrown around when the moral center of *the show* should recognize that Dukat does not and likely never will deserve forgiveness--regardless of the grayness he possesses.

I'm not saying the grayness shouldn't be done, just that it SHOULD be a talking point. How sometimes you have to go with what you know about someone, regardless of how they can make you feel.

[Durandal_1707]

No I agree, the problem enters when the WRITERS start falling for it. Not that they completely did, but even Chuck mentions that the writers several times feared they were making dukat TOO likable and had to scale it back lest they give the wrong impression. Stories ARE, in a way, propaganda. If Dukat was consistently shown as a super guy to be around who just happened to have committed genocide in the past but that's ALL behind him save for the genocide he may commit in the future . . . that gets integrated into the message. "Genocidal warlords can be your friend!"

I don't think that even came close to happening. It certainly wasn't something that needed to be corrected at the time "Waltz" aired. I mean, in Season 5, Dukat had sold out his entire people to the Dominion and then led an attack on the station, and then in the Occupation Arc he was 1) occupying the station, 2) helping plan the invasion of the Federation, and 3) sexually harassing Kira. How villainous do you need him to get?

Even at the peak of Dukat's "sympathetic period", during the Klingon arc, he 1) had to be restrained from killing his own daughter and 2) tried to drag his daughter into his one-man rebellion, which was clearly portrayed as foolish. Each time, Kira pretty clearly communicates the writers' intentions with her speeches and facial expressions.

[CrypticMirror]

No I agree, the problem enters when the WRITERS start falling for it. Not that they completely did, but even Chuck mentions that the writers several times feared they were making dukat TOO likable and had to scale it back lest they give the wrong impression. Stories ARE, in a way, propaganda. If Dukat was consistently shown as a super guy to be around who just happened to have committed genocide in the past but that's ALL behind him save for the genocide he may commit in the future . . . that gets integrated into the message. "Genocidal warlords can be your friend!"

I don't think that even came close to happening. It certainly wasn't something that needed to be corrected at the time "Waltz" aired. I mean, in Season 5, Dukat had sold out his entire people to the Dominion and then led an attack on the station, and then in the Occupation Arc he was 1) occupying the station, 2) helping plan the invasion of the Federation, and 3) sexually harassing Kira. How villainous do you need him to get?

Even at the peak of Dukat's "sympathetic period", during the Klingon arc, he 1) had to be restrained from killing his own daughter and 2) tried to drag his daughter into his one-man rebellion, which was clearly portrayed as foolish. Each time, Kira pretty clearly communicates the writers' intentions with her speeches and facial expressions.

I agree, if anything the problem was more that the Dominion and the Female Changeling had overshadowed Dukat as the Evilest Villains to ever Evil and so he looked less evil by comparison because he was obviously being used as a tool by the Dominion. Marc Alaimo's charisma clearly made him memorable so with that and Dukat being overshadowed and played for a fool by the Dominion his nastier side seemed less prominent.