STD: Lethe

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

There's a quote I like from Orson Scott Card's Speaker for the Dead (maybe his best book)- "This is how humans are: We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question.”

Vulcans are the same way. Their culture is steeped in tradition, and logic is an added layer of tradition that lies atop their ancient, violent ways. As has been pointed out a few times in the various shows, their passion is just beneath the surface, and in the best-written Vulcan characters (usually Spock or Sarek), that passion manifests itself in interesting ways. Spock especially embraces his Vulcan half while also being something of a rebel, and his human half gives him a unique perspective on his own culture. In Amok Time, for example- other Vulcans might not discuss their rituals openly, but in my opinion the level of embarrassment shown is unique to Spock. I doubt that most Vulcans would even realize that their rituals aren't purely logical or see a disconnect between their logical tradition and their ritualistic tradition. Only the torn Spock perceives that conflict.

Every amateur (or professional) philosopher knows how ridiculously difficult it can be to prove simple things that every "normal" person takes for granted. The slightest variance in how two people approach a premise or first principle can result in wildly divergent worldviews. So, given the history of Vulcan, it's totally believable to me that Vulcans could do almost anything in the name of logic without their logic actually making sense to most of us.

[MixedDrops]

Out of the Discovery episodes so far, I'd say this is the only one that really justifies the Michael-Sarek connection, so I'm surprised Chuck didn't really comment on that since he asked that the show give some justification for the groan-worthy foster sibling aspect. I'd also find it a great character episode on its own. I don't think you could've told this story, at least not as effectively, had the Vulcan character just been some other character instead of the Sarek we already know. To me the connection to Sarek and Spock allowed long-time fans to understand the gravity of the choice Sarek made and why he would regret it so deeply.

As for the inclusion of the logic extremist in the story...I don't really have a problem with it personally, the only problem I have with Vulcans being depicted in an antagonistic role is when you don't have good characters to balance them out, and I feel James Frain gives a great performance as the main Vulcan character we see in the show. I will say I'm surprised quite a few people are having a hard time understanding its relevance to the themes Discovery wanted to have (of course a lot of the people saying so haven't watched the show, so I guess that would explain it). It was clear right from the first episode that the series wanted to do some kind of examination of multiculturalism vs isolationism theme, from the Klingon's philosophy, to this Vulcan extremist, to the way the Mirror Universe was depicted, all were tied thematically via their resistance to the multicultural utopia the Federation represents (and Sarek's philosophy- as Chuck summarized really well in this review). I also remember reading a good point elsewhere that Michael herself, as the lead of the show, is an affront to the isolationist viewpoint simply via existing, both within the universe of the show and in a meta-sense with the way the character was casted.

For the record, I do feel Discovery was a mixed bag on delivering on that examination. I feel the show didn't do enough to explain why multiculturalism is a good thing. I mean obviously as a Trek show it's going to come down on that side of the equation, but I feel a lot of the time it simply treated it as a given rather than showing the strengths it can bring. Michael herself actually seems to accidentally be an argument against that, because the turmoil she experiences trying to resolve her Vulcan and Human halves have made a lot of things go wrong in her life. To contrast, I'd say an example (and not even a particularly good one) of it being done was in TNG. I forgot exactly which episode it was, but there was one where Geordi talked about how the innovations that came of allowing him to exist (ie the VISOR) was key to solving the anomaly of that particular week. I think Discovery needed more of something along those lines weaved into its narrative.

[AllanO]

To contrast, I'd say an example (and not even a particularly good one) of it being done was in TNG. I forgot exactly which episode it was, but there was one where Geordi talked about how the innovations that came of allowing him to exist (ie the VISOR) was key to solving the anomaly of that particular week. I think Discovery needed more of something along those lines weaved into its narrative.

So I think you are referring to the Masterpiece Society where (googling a transcript) we had this exchange:

LAFORGE: A bank of pre-processors compresses the data stream into pulses, you see. That way, my visual cortex never. Wait a minute. Wait just a minute. We should be able to send a high-energy pulse through the tractor system. If it's short enough, it shouldn't overload the emitters. The technology is right here. If we could adapt those pulse compression routines and then apply them to the warp power conduits.
HANNAH: We'd have to avoid tractor force rebounding, but that shouldn't be hard.
LAFORGE: Sure. With a few modifications. Oh, that's perfect.
HANNAH: What?
LAFORGE: If the answer to all of this is in a visor created for a blind man who never would have existed in your society. No offence intended.

That was pretty heavy handed, but I think you might have a point that Discovery could have had worked more to make explicit the theme and this would be an example of the kind of thing they could do.

Note that other than Micheal's unique set of abilities as a human raised by Vulances, we also had the Spore drive as a pie in the sky research project becoming the key weapon in the war for the Federation. Also using the broadcast by the hive mind planet as a way to detect cloaked ships as a pure science/exploration turned to tactical advantage (if it had worked anyway). So I don't think the sort of thing never comes up in Discovery but I could see that the theme was occasionally at least attempted.

[Mickey_Rat15]

In TOS Spock goes violently nuts because he gets horny and then the Vulcans make him fight to the death for the right to marry a girl who doesn't even like him. The idea that Vulcans are some sort of super-rational perfect race has always been more of a stereotype than a reality.

Spock, when he was not mental from his biology, was often a smug jerk to his crewmates in TOS. Just as a main character we got to see all of his sides. Vulcan guest and recurring characters have often been emphasizing just the superior jerk aspect of Vulcan personalities.

[CharlesPhipps]

I view Vulcan devotion to logic the same way I do Buddhist and Christian devotion to peace as well as charity. It's usually there but I think the absolutism people attribute to Vulcans has not only never existed but was never a major point.

Besides, logic is the path to wisdom, it is not wisdom itself.

In short...Vulcans try to be like Tolkien elves usually but even Tolkien had Feanor.

[AlucardNoir]

Speaking of STD, why is Chuck planing to go insane after he reviews the next STD episode?

[Makeshift Python]

I'm perfectly fine with the idea of depicting Vulcans with different values. We learn about an extremist isolationist group in TNG's "Gambit" two-parter that Picard had to face, but we've hardly seen an expansion of that in other Trek shows until now with DISCOVERY. I hope this is something we'll see more of as the show progresses.

Having just revisited ENTERPRISE, I found myself less bothered by the depiction of Vulcans in that show. In fact, I kind of embrace the idea that Vulcan society was a lot different in the 22nd century before evolving into what we see in the 23rd century. It's basically part of the idea that humans being the new kid on the block have to actually prove themselves ready to venture out and make contact with others. The Vulcans aren't putting them down because they're just bad guys, they have a genuine concern for humanity and want to see that this species doesn't get in over their heads. It's only later by the 23rd century that humans have proven to be a valuable people that bring cultures together, that Vulcans had embraced humanity as not just allies but friends, as we see reflected with Kirk and Spock.

Also agree with the above that "Lethe" probably justified the Michael Burnham as Sarek's foster daughter thing the most. It honestly never bothered me when first learning about it, my only reaction being "huh, let's see what they make of this" and "Lethe" was one of the stronger episodes of the first season for me, so points for the show on that.

Really looking forward to Chuck's overall opinion of DISCOVERY. In a lot of ways I think it's a much stronger first season than what we got from TNG, VOYAGER and ENTERPRISE (which may not be saying much, one could say) but certainly not touching TOS. It's more or less closer to DS9's first season IMO.

Part of why I'm much more willing to give DISCOVERY a chance is because of the past shows. TNG is the most obvious example. Had that show been cancelled after one season, it would clearly not be as revered as it is (and Trek would be A LOT different than we know without it). So to me, dismissing DISCOVERY outright may as well be dismissing the possibility of the show ascending. More than anything, I hope it finds its own stride like TNG. I think it has that potential. I just hope it reaches that a lot quicker than ENTERPRISE did before it's too late.

[MixedDrops]

I'd say putting it on DS9 first season's level overall would be fair, but I'd also say DS9 had much higher highs and lower lows. Duet is one of the best Trek episodes ever produced, but it also hosts Move Along Home, which is...yeah. I can't think of any DISCO episode in season 1 I'd actually consider "bad", save the finale, but that might be because of how highly serialized the season was.

As for the future of DISCO, I think it's highly likely season 2 will be some kind of retooling of the show. It was really, really obvious by the season finale that they just wanted tie every loose end up resulting in that insanity that happened on-screen, and like I said elsewhere, I kinda wished they had developed those ideas more over a whole season instead of throwing them all out as fast as they could, but apparently I'm in the minority of wanting that.

[animalia]

I have Asperger's Syndrome So I can relate to logic and values thing, so to speak. Rather I would say that logic can take multiple paths. For an example of my own, if you look at human history you can see all that hasn't changed and be a pessimist, or you can look at all that has changed and be be an optimist. It depends on your perspective, but they are BOTH LOGICAL outlooks to take.

[YAGWG]

Maybe the crew shirts say "DISCO" because:

1. They're all big fans of The Cinema Snob's movie of that name.
2. They all drive Land Rover SUVs