Empire Strikes Back

[GandALF]

That's going very far to justify an out of character action there. You could use the same logic to argue Picard would strike young a crewman who annoyed him because he got angry at Wesley once.

Tell that to Ensign Lynch

When he faced Vader later. He showed he had some mastery of his emotions. However he was still greatly outmatched having not completed his training. He still rejected the dark side at his lowest point.

He did so because he realized how Vader-like he is while staring at his cybernetic hand.

TLJ Spoilers:
Luke approached Vader on Endor to try and redeem him. The most evil man in the galaxy. Yet, he sees a darkness in his Nephew Ben and considers slaying him. He's not under any pressure here. He's not in a throne room being hunted by the most powerful sith lord in the galaxy while the Rebellion is being destroyed by the Empire. He's at his academy surrounded by friends.

The most hopeful character every gives up. His final act is to tell Ben that there's no hope in redeeming him. He doesn't even pass on his legacy or unique insights through training. He complains until the new lead gets sick of his crap.

He doesn't give up. He says to Leia that "no one's ever really gone" after she gives up on him. Yes, he doesn't go out there to redeem Ben because the "duel" is Luke's redemption: he asks Ben for forgiveness. And when he doesn't get it his last words are "see ya 'round kid" so not even dying his going make him give up.

[Admiral X]

The thing that really bothers me is how TLJ effectively threw out the mythos as far as dark side and light side.

During the Force Skype calls or whatever you want to call them, Rey is constantly lashing out with anger and hatred, while Kylo is calm and collected. Rey is also lashing out in anger when she takes on Luke later on before deciding to leave.

[Winter]

Just for the record I want to state that again I have no issue with anyone who likes TLJ. I have my issues with it but again I'm someone who likes the Prequels.

[ORCACommander]

admiral, rey is basically untrained and she has finally gone into a situation where she no longer needs self control because of her growing connection with the force, not to mention she has a very personal grudge against kylo and I would find this aboratiuon horribly intrusive.

[Rocketboy1313]

The thing that really bothers me is how TLJ effectively threw out the mythos as far as dark side and light side.

During the Force Skype calls or whatever you want to call them, Rey is constantly lashing out with anger and hatred, while Kylo is calm and collected. Rey is also lashing out in anger when she takes on Luke later on before deciding to leave.

Basic duality is not a complicated or nuanced perspective, and if the plan is to make 20+ movies (and that is the goal) then getting rid of that simple split makes sense.

To analogize, the original movies and the prequels take place over maybe 60 years tops. In a Galaxy where the Jedi have been in power for thousands. We are not even seeing enough of the history and culture of that period to get a grasp on anything. It would be like trying to project all of the history and culture of the Roman Empire based on the rule of Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne. It is not going to get you a lot of the messy details.

There is no reason to think the Dark/Light split that dominated the previous films is in anyone the only line of thinking on the subject, let alone the only way to work something out of it.

[Winter]

admiral, rey is basically untrained and she has finally gone into a situation where she no longer needs self control because of her growing connection with the force, not to mention she has a very personal grudge against kylo and I would find this aboratiuon horribly intrusive.

A issue I have with Rey dislike and out right hatred towards Kylo Ren is just how easily she forgives him. they talk like three times and by the third time she's pretty much forgiven him of all his wrong doing which include Ren killing Han and putting Finn into a coma.

In the original Trilogy Luke didn't so much forgive Vader of all the wrongs but was more trying to redeem him once he had the whole story. Same thing with Mara, it was only after she had learned the whole truth instead of what Palpatine had shown her that she was began to try and let go of her hatred towards Luke and in universe for both it took Luke four years to process his feelings on Vader being his father and it took Mara almost a year to forgive Luke for what she believed he did.

With Rey, it took her a week, at most, to not only forgive Ren for what he had done, which included him trying to kill her, and act as though she was in love with him. While How it Should Have Ended has made jokes in regards to Vader be ultra exited about being a father in universe he and Luke never really got over the issues they had from being enemies. Luke forgave him, redeemed him and tried to save him but they never treated each other like father and son and Mara and Luke didn't really fall in love at the end of the Thrawn Trilogy so much as they became friends, and only at the end of the Thrawn Trilogy.

While the actors had fantastic chemistry and give a good performance I never really liked how their scenes were written. But that's just me, what do you think?

[GandALF]

Basic duality is not a complicated or nuanced perspective, and if the plan is to make 20+ movies (and that is the goal) then getting rid of that simple split makes sense.

To analogize, the original movies and the prequels take place over maybe 60 years tops. In a Galaxy where the Jedi have been in power for thousands. We are not even seeing enough of the history and culture of that period to get a grasp on anything. It would be like trying to project all of the history and culture of the Roman Empire based on the rule of Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne. It is not going to get you a lot of the messy details.

There is no reason to think the Dark/Light split that dominated the previous films is in anyone the only line of thinking on the subject, let alone the only way to work something out of it.

Well no, it's the monomyth, the same basic concepts constantly recur. In Game of Thrones there characters who are driven by fear/greed/anger and other characters who struggle for self-mastery, so the same ideas are still at play even in more nuanced works.

[Fixer]

Tell that to Ensign Lynch

Well yes. I suppose the testosterone addled movie Picard gunning down a borg drone is as far from TV Picard striking a junior officer that merely annoyed him is as Luke's depiction in the last Jedi is as far from his character is in the original trilogy.

To follow up though. You're saying Luke rejected the dark side because he looked at his cybernetic hand. Well yes, and no.

By the time Luke has arrived at that point he he is the culmination of several experiences, choices and lessons learned from his mistakes. When he has struck down his father, enraged by the threat against his sister. He's at a point where the Emperor has revealed that the Rebellion being drawn here was a trap and they are being destroyed as he speaks, where he was taunted into striking at him.

There's no hope for him but he's enraged and empowered by the dark side. He takes his father's hand who is now helpless on the floor before him. He wants to kill him, he could do so. Accept the power of the dark side and take Vader's place.

He looks at his hand. It's the one his own father took from him. Now Vader is in the same place. His failure in the cave. His failure at Bespin. He realises the choice that lies before him.
He decides not to make the same mistake his father made. He will not travel down the dark path even though the Rebellion will still die without him, even though it will likely mean his death.

He will uphold the Jedi code. He has accepted this as who he is. He has become the Jedi ideal. In the end, it is his example and his endless hope and optimism which break through to Vader and redeems his father.

If you're looking at character motivations as simplistic A does B because of C you can justify almost any out-of character action. Luke hangs out on an island because the green milk reminds him of blue milk. However human beings, individuals and thus good character writing arrives at characters acting in a method that reflects their attitude and motivations. Even in stories as simple as star wars.

When Luke all but sacrifices himself to try and redeem his father, and then just runs away from then taunts Kylo, a far more conflicted individual, having not even attempted to redeem him admitting he's failed and he's not going to try. He's not the same character.

The thing that really bothers me is how TLJ effectively threw out the mythos as far as dark side and light side.

During the Force Skype calls or whatever you want to call them, Rey is constantly lashing out with anger and hatred, while Kylo is calm and collected. Rey is also lashing out in anger when she takes on Luke later on before deciding to leave.

Also that the Dark side is supposed to be the quick and easy path which is part of why it is so tempting. Yet there is no struggle here.

The poor writing comes from how these movies are created. There's two alternate openings to TFA. One where Luke's lightsaber and his hand floats through space until it lands on Jakku. The second where a ship that looks a lot like a Corellian Corevette pulls a wrecked Star Destroyer to dump on the planet. Both of these introductions change the story of the universe as presented. As well as asking questions as to how the hell Luke's hand ended up in space.

They're created because visually they look "cool" and then these scenes are bolted together roughly into some sort of story rather than having any kind of plan or character arc. It's the cinematic equivalent of a bunch of kids playing with action figures and smashing them together in playsets.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

The thing that really bothers me is how TLJ effectively threw out the mythos as far as dark side and light side.

During the Force Skype calls or whatever you want to call them, Rey is constantly lashing out with anger and hatred, while Kylo is calm and collected. Rey is also lashing out in anger when she takes on Luke later on before deciding to leave.

Basic duality is not a complicated or nuanced perspective, and if the plan is to make 20+ movies (and that is the goal) then getting rid of that simple split makes sense.

To analogize, the original movies and the prequels take place over maybe 60 years tops. In a Galaxy where the Jedi have been in power for thousands. We are not even seeing enough of the history and culture of that period to get a grasp on anything. It would be like trying to project all of the history and culture of the Roman Empire based on the rule of Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne. It is not going to get you a lot of the messy details.

There is no reason to think the Dark/Light split that dominated the previous films is in anyone the only line of thinking on the subject, let alone the only way to work something out of it.

I think a big park of the cave scene is that it shakes up Luke's worldview in terms of good/evil and light/dark. There's the obvious familial connection between Luke and Vader, but it also comes as a revelation to Luke that the line between light side and dark side could be ambiguous. At the same time, however, there certainly is a real light and dark side to the force- it's just that individuals aren't clearly totally aligned with one side or another.

There's plenty of room for grey individuals and different perspectives among individuals, but I don't think it makes sense to change that fundamental aspect of the force.

As for Rey, I can't say exactly what they're going for and I think the writers still have a couple tricks up their sleeve, but I can't say I'm thrilled with her effortless, no-failure-allowed (or training needed) "hero's journey" so far. A theory I've been seeing a lot lately is that Reylo is going to happen and a new "balanced" order will be established, but I just can't see them going in that direction.


Finally, as for Luke in TLJ, the guy's not even remotely similar to the Luke from the OT, in fact TLJ Luke is almost his opposite. The fundamental traits of the character as fans knew him are nowhere to be found for most of the movie.

I do think the construction of the new movies betray a severely haphazard style of worldbuilding (if you can even call it that) and insufficient planning. I don't think Episode IX can possibly put a bow on the sequel trilogy after Rian Johnson tore everything apart and left JJ with nothing going into it, let alone come up with a satisfactory ending to the entire Skywalker saga.

[Madner Kami]

Failure 1: JJ sets up to many loose ends without a clear vision of where they are going to lead.
Failure 2: Rian Johnson can't find a thread to follow and meanders around trying to fix loose ends instead of telling a coherent story.
Failure 3: The third part has nothing to tie up and everything that is going to be re-setup in order to create any sensible loose ends leads to no satisfactory ending.