Dr. Who: Christmas Invasion

[Sir Will]

Also, am I the only one finding some unfortunate implication about Harriet Jones, a female politician, whose career is cut short by a commentary about her appearance? It's a fact that female politicians face way more scrutiny about their appearance, health, and such than men do - and yes, Chuck in the episode points out a male example of the same thing. But I've always wondered if Harriet Jones had been "Harry Jones", if the writers would've had the doctor use those same words to topple his government.

I don't see why they wouldn't. I think you're reading too much into it but eh.

I'm not sure if I agree with her decision or not but I don't agree with what The Doctor did. I overall don't like this special that much.

[Ghilz]

Going against the grain here, but I disagree with Harriet Jones' decision. Regardless of whether or not the Sycorax would continue to honor their agreement or not, the fact of the matter is that they were honoring it at the time. They had ended hostilities with Earth and were leaving the planet. And humanity shot them in the back. If Earth is sending out any message to all the other alien races out there with that act, it's "We cannot be trusted". The Sycorax did as they promised. Earth killed them anyways.

Also removed any reason for future invaders to surrender if they found they'd bitten off more than they could chew, but instead double down in desperation and fight to the very last, which is why shooting at a surrendered enemy is a real life war crime even if you do suspect them of going to do the nasty on you later.

Plus, and this is the big one for me anyway, it was militarily stupid to give away the existence of a giant space laser at a time when she had no real immediate reason to do so. The time to reveal that is when an enemy is attacking and they suddenly get a space laser to the face. Next enemy that comes along gets go to in with the knowledge of the space laser's existence and effects and thus has time to devise a counter in advance of their invasion. The Torchwood gun isn't a space nuke for deterrence (that would be that Osterhagen Key, invade and we'll take your forces with us, that was kept secret), but artillery to be used in active defence. You want to make sure people know about your space nukes in advance and your artillery as a surprise, the show had it the wrong way round. If the Sycorax turned around then she could always have shot them then. It wasn't like there was a best before date on the side of her space laser. She should have kept that one in her back pocket for later if she had to.

I think that is why Harriet "Cottage Hospitals" Jones did have to go; she made herself seem untrustworthy, and she exposed Earth to more dangers than she solved, all through a scared and impulsive gesture of defiance to a problem she wasn't even faced with.

Except the Sycorax never made a deal with Earth. They made a deal with the Doctor.

And he's not (yet) President of earth by the time this episode happens.

[CrypticMirror]

Except the Sycorax never made a deal with Earth. They made a deal with the Doctor.

And he's not (yet) President of earth by the time this episode happens.

Harriet seized control of the narrative from the US president and demanded she get to lead, then she went all over Earth media and appealed for the Doctor to save her ass, and then literally stood by and let the Doctor set terms and duel over those terms. Yeah, the Doctor was the boss there and it was on her to abide by that.

Not to mention the whole revealing military assets when she had no reason to. That was just epicly dumb. She got caught up early on in being desperate to get Torchwood to get the space laser online and shoot down the Sycorax vessel, but by the time the laser was working the Sycorax were leaving (for good or for now is irrelevant here) and she was still in a we gotta shoot them down thought mode and unable to keep up with developments. A smart leader would have let the Sycorax leave and just made sure the laser was kept ready to shoot them in their faces if they reneged on the deal. A pragmatic leader wouldn't have cared why they were leaving, just that they were leaving and if they came back the laser was ready.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Honestly, a thing that really annoys me in this episode is that early on Jackie Tyler OFFERS THE DOCTOR TEA and he REFUSES. If he'd just taken the damn tea he could have been up and ready in time and not dealt with the santa robots and resolved the conflict in a half-hour. Then he's revived by a bit of spilled tea when ...HE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THE DAMN TEA. WHY DIDN'T HE?

[Nevix]

Honestly, a thing that really annoys me in this episode is that early on Jackie Tyler OFFERS THE DOCTOR TEA and he REFUSES. If he'd just taken the damn tea he could have been up and ready in time and not dealt with the santa robots and resolved the conflict in a half-hour. Then he's revived by a bit of spilled tea when ...HE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THE DAMN TEA. WHY DIDN'T HE?

... Because The Script Said So.

As for the episode... Meh.

It was okay. Ten came off as a major arsehat in this episode, and a lot of his following episodes were actually softening him up from said arsehat status, or showing how destructive that attitude could be, at least in my view.

It's the results of taking down Harriet Jones that undercuts The Doctor's choice to ruin her career. He nearly destroys the world, and brings about his own next death.

I also find the method absolutely believable, as there are a LOT of other examples of someone who made a simple mistake or blunder and either never recovered, or had to spend years repairing their reputation.

I'm sure this isn't a complete list of similar incidences.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/N ... n/RealLife

[CareerKnight]

Going against the grain here, but I disagree with Harriet Jones' decision. Regardless of whether or not the Sycorax would continue to honor their agreement or not, the fact of the matter is that they were honoring it at the time. They had ended hostilities with Earth and were leaving the planet. And humanity shot them in the back. If Earth is sending out any message to all the other alien races out there with that act, it's "We cannot be trusted". The Sycorax did as they promised. Earth killed them anyways.

Also removed any reason for future invaders to surrender if they found they'd bitten off more than they could chew, but instead double down in desperation and fight to the very last, which is why shooting at a surrendered enemy is a real life war crime even if you do suspect them of going to do the nasty on you later.

Plus, and this is the big one for me anyway, it was militarily stupid to give away the existence of a giant space laser at a time when she had no real immediate reason to do so. The time to reveal that is when an enemy is attacking and they suddenly get a space laser to the face. Next enemy that comes along gets go to in with the knowledge of the space laser's existence and effects and thus has time to devise a counter in advance of their invasion. The Torchwood gun isn't a space nuke for deterrence (that would be that Osterhagen Key, invade and we'll take your forces with us, that was kept secret), but artillery to be used in active defence. You want to make sure people know about your space nukes in advance and your artillery as a surprise, the show had it the wrong way round. If the Sycorax turned around then she could always have shot them then. It wasn't like there was a best before date on the side of her space laser. She should have kept that one in her back pocket for later if she had to.

I think that is why Harriet "Cottage Hospitals" Jones did have to go; she made herself seem untrustworthy, and she exposed Earth to more dangers than she solved, all through a scared and impulsive gesture of defiance to a problem she wasn't even faced with.

Agreed, the last thing you want on your resume when trying to negotiate a surrender is "Has been willing to shoot surrendered enemies in the back before".

[FaxModem1]

Keep in mind Jones's reasoning. The Doctor let her know that Earth was being brought into the interstellar community, and couldn't hide anymore. Earth's primary defense has been that it's beneath notice. Doctor's declaration ensures that the Sycorax tell every alien Tom, Dick, and Harry that there's billions of humans there for the taking, and only one guy around to defend it, if he's up to it.

Whereas if the Sycorax just disappear, well, who knows how, when, or where they were killed. Earth gets more time to build up, research technology, and advance, and isn't dragged into whatever galactic wars happen. For instance the Time War, which destroyed entire civilizations. Or used for natural resources, like happened with the Slitheen. Or other such nasty things that happens to a non-developed nation by a developed one.

Imagine if you were a Pacific Island nation in the Age of Sail, and were able to repulse a slaving crew once, because of luck. I'd much rather not be on anyone's maps or charts until we could talk to them on even terms. Especially as the consequences of such actions as allowing them to run away are that they just come back with a bigger force next time.

[AllanO]

Whereas if the Sycorax just disappear, well, who knows how, when, or where they were killed. Earth gets more time to build up, research technology, and advance, and isn't dragged into whatever galactic wars happen. For instance the Time War, which destroyed entire civilizations. Or used for natural resources, like happened with the Slitheen. Or other such nasty things that happens to a non-developed nation by a developed one.

The thing is for all we and Jones know the Sycorax are intermittently or constantly updating their central hub (or distributed network) on their progress etc. Given the way we operate high technology it seems like we would set-up a feed to keep our central control aware of what happened to our ships, probes etc. (along with a black box flight recorder etc.). So that even if they were to meet with an accident or hostile destruction etc. we would have some clue what happened. So it seems like we should assume everyone now knows about the space laser and humanity's itchy trigger finger.

The writers may have intended we think of it the way you suggest, but the nature of plot holes etc. is that the writers intended you to think of them as not a problem but you can't help but think of them in some other way that undermines the story they are trying to tell.

Likewise the writers may have intended that the Torchwood space weapon be seen as a kind of space nuke (in CrypticMirror's parlance) or some sort of comprehensive defense, but it is really hard for me to see it as being an effective deterrent against invasion instead of a weapon of limited tactical and strategic value.

Of course part of what is at work here is the lack of agreement of how space to planet combat might be expected to actually work. For example in this episode which I have not seen, it seems to me the Sycorax are being needlessly circuitous in their threats to the Earth. Instead of messing about with blood control or whatever, just threaten to drop bigger and bigger rocks on the Earth until your demands are met that would seem to me easy for someone who had mastered interstellar travel and would achieve the same sort of threat to billions of peoples lives if not quite with the personal drama...

Anyway so as presented I find Harriet Jones decision tactically and strategically dubious and so that kind of confirms its moral dubiousness. Now if it were completely solid tactically and strategically I might be less willing to attack it morally, but for the reasons suggested above and given by others I do find it tactically and strategically dubious.

[Jonathan101]

Whereas if the Sycorax just disappear, well, who knows how, when, or where they were killed. Earth gets more time to build up, research technology, and advance, and isn't dragged into whatever galactic wars happen. For instance the Time War, which destroyed entire civilizations. Or used for natural resources, like happened with the Slitheen. Or other such nasty things that happens to a non-developed nation by a developed one.

The thing is for all we and Jones know the Sycorax are intermittently or constantly updating their central hub (or distributed network) on their progress etc. Given the way we operate high technology it seems like we would set-up a feed to keep our central control aware of what happened to our ships, probes etc. (along with a black box flight recorder etc.). So that even if they were to meet with an accident or hostile destruction etc. we would have some clue what happened. So it seems like we should assume everyone now knows about the space laser and humanity's itchy trigger finger.

The writers may have intended we think of it the way you suggest, but the nature of plot holes etc. is that the writers intended you to think of them as not a problem but you can't help but think of them in some other way that undermines the story they are trying to tell.

Likewise the writers may have intended that the Torchwood space weapon be seen as a kind of space nuke (in CrypticMirror's parlance) or some sort of comprehensive defense, but it is really hard for me to see it as being an effective deterrent against invasion instead of a weapon of limited tactical and strategic value.

Of course part of what is at work here is the lack of agreement of how space to planet combat might be expected to actually work. For example in this episode which I have not seen, it seems to me the Sycorax are being needlessly circuitous in their threats to the Earth. Instead of messing about with blood control or whatever, just threaten to drop bigger and bigger rocks on the Earth until your demands are met that would seem to me easy for someone who had mastered interstellar travel and would achieve the same sort of threat to billions of peoples lives if not quite with the personal drama...

Anyway so as presented I find Harriet Jones decision tactically and strategically dubious and so that kind of confirms its moral dubiousness. Now if it were completely solid tactically and strategically I might be less willing to attack it morally, but for the reasons suggested above and given by others I do find it tactically and strategically dubious.

Well, the Sycorax showed up to enslave as many people as possible. Hard to do that if you start dropping rocks on people. Even their threat to force billions to jump was a bluff in the end, presumably because they didn't want to mass murder a valuable resource.

Remember that if the Doctor hadn't showed up, Earth might well have surrendered, so their tactics worked. The alternative was that Torchwood would blow them up of course and just hoped that solved everything (which, arguably, it would have done), but that would be the case regardless of what the Sycorax used.

[FaxModem1]

Whereas if the Sycorax just disappear, well, who knows how, when, or where they were killed. Earth gets more time to build up, research technology, and advance, and isn't dragged into whatever galactic wars happen. For instance the Time War, which destroyed entire civilizations. Or used for natural resources, like happened with the Slitheen. Or other such nasty things that happens to a non-developed nation by a developed one.

The thing is for all we and Jones know the Sycorax are intermittently or constantly updating their central hub (or distributed network) on their progress etc. Given the way we operate high technology it seems like we would set-up a feed to keep our central control aware of what happened to our ships, probes etc. (along with a black box flight recorder etc.). So that even if they were to meet with an accident or hostile destruction etc. we would have some clue what happened. So it seems like we should assume everyone now knows about the space laser and humanity's itchy trigger finger.

The writers may have intended we think of it the way you suggest, but the nature of plot holes etc. is that the writers intended you to think of them as not a problem but you can't help but think of them in some other way that undermines the story they are trying to tell.

Sure, maybe the Sycorax are livestreaming their conquests for all we know.

However, in general, Doctor Who civilizations don't seem to keep in contact with their ships that often. At least not often enough that they would have had time to broadcast their peace deal made within the twenty minutes before they were blown up.

Likewise the writers may have intended that the Torchwood space weapon be seen as a kind of space nuke (in CrypticMirror's parlance) or some sort of comprehensive defense, but it is really hard for me to see it as being an effective deterrent against invasion instead of a weapon of limited tactical and strategic value.

Of course part of what is at work here is the lack of agreement of how space to planet combat might be expected to actually work. For example in this episode which I have not seen, it seems to me the Sycorax are being needlessly circuitous in their threats to the Earth. Instead of messing about with blood control or whatever, just threaten to drop bigger and bigger rocks on the Earth until your demands are met that would seem to me easy for someone who had mastered interstellar travel and would achieve the same sort of threat to billions of peoples lives if not quite with the personal drama...

Anyway so as presented I find Harriet Jones decision tactically and strategically dubious and so that kind of confirms its moral dubiousness. Now if it were completely solid tactically and strategically I might be less willing to attack it morally, but for the reasons suggested above and given by others I do find it tactically and strategically dubious.

Odo: You'd shoot an enemy in the back?
Garak: It's the safest way.

Humor aside, I'm not sure if the Torchwood space cannon was the equivalent of a WMD or just the space equivalent of a artillery cannons on a fort. The biggest problem seemed to be that they took the course of a day to set up, which could have been due to not being ready for interstellar invasions yet, or it takes that long to charge.