Should Kathleen Kennedy be let go from the Star Wars megaproject?

[Worffan101]

I liked Solo OK myself but it was a poor business decision, was never going to be very good, and was aimed specifically at the fanboys who hate Disney right now.

Really, that's the problem. No matter how good the execution, most ideas have been really bad, except for TFA, which was a decent idea executed badly by JJ, and TLJ, which was a good but risky idea executed HORRIBLY. Solo? Bad idea executed brilliantly. Rogue One? Mediocre at best idea executed surprisingly well. Giving the video-game rights to EA? One of the objectively WORST ideas possible to make, and one that would've been obvious from a simple look into EA's history in the video-game industry.

The last part has contributed to an inability to maintain positive press coverage, and that plus the long inter-movie periods and the troubled production of Solo has resulted in a really poor advertising cycle as production of Episode 9 preps to begin.

I honestly would see if Kevin Feige is available to give advice.

[Yukaphile]

Okay, I'm back with a reply. But seriously, I'm not against turning Lando pansexual or whatever. He hit on Leia? So? Maybe he's bisexual, and she was just someone who floated his boat. You're also forgetting the 1970s Star Wars was the all-white Empire vs. the all-white Rebels. Practically. Battle of Yavin? All white male pilots. The ground troops at Hoth? All white men. The Battle of Endor? Practically ALL white men! And need we forget Leia's slave costume? That really made the actress and other people uncomfortable? And most of all, I'd argue gay couples need the most love in modern entertainment since it's been kept off the air for decades by uptight terrified conservatives who fear people freaking out or just loathe that kind of thing - you know, like Rick Berman? I wanna see more gay characters. I can understand if you want to preserve the integrity of the original design, but it was hardly progressive, and given how chauvinistic and xenophobic the all-human Empire was presented as in the old EU? Well, it seems weird that there's so little representation among the bedraggled aliens the Emperor's campaigns of oppression would drive to the Rebellion or more women on the front lines. Certain things need to change. If you want Lando to stay straight, fine. But do NOT act as if some people just despise the idea of putting any gay couple in Star Wars or Star Trek no matter what. And want it kept off movies and TV completely. That's why. I dream of a world of total gay acceptance. And they need more empowerment when the entertainment industry helps to shape our collective societal worldview.

[Karha of Honor]

Okay, I'm back with a reply. But seriously, I'm not against turning Lando pansexual or whatever. He hit on Leia? So? Maybe he's bisexual, and she was just someone who floated his boat. You're also forgetting the 1970s Star Wars was the all-white Empire vs. the all-white Rebels. Practically. Battle of Yavin? All white male pilots. The ground troops at Hoth? All white men. The Battle of Endor? Practically ALL white men! And need we forget Leia's slave costume? That really made the actress and other people uncomfortable? And most of all, I'd argue gay couples need the most love in modern entertainment since it's been kept off the air for decades by uptight terrified conservatives who fear people freaking out or just loathe that kind of thing - you know, like Rick Berman? I wanna see more gay characters. I can understand if you want to preserve the integrity of the original design, but it was hardly progressive, and given how chauvinistic and xenophobic the all-human Empire was presented as in the old EU? Well, it seems weird that there's so little representation among the bedraggled aliens the Emperor's campaigns of oppression would drive to the Rebellion or more women on the front lines. Certain things need to change. If you want Lando to stay straight, fine. But do NOT act as if some people just despise the idea of putting any gay couple in Star Wars or Star Trek no matter what. And want it kept off movies and TV completely. That's why. I dream of a world of total gay acceptance. And they need more empowerment when the entertainment industry helps to shape our collective societal worldview.

I am fine wit Star Trek doing it, skeptical that i will enjoy it Star Wars does it.

I liked Solo OK myself but it was a poor business decision, was never going to be very good, and was aimed specifically at the fanboys who hate Disney right now.

Really, that's the problem. No matter how good the execution, most ideas have been really bad, except for TFA, which was a decent idea executed badly by JJ, and TLJ, which was a good but risky idea executed HORRIBLY. Solo? Bad idea executed brilliantly. Rogue One? Mediocre at best idea executed surprisingly well. Giving the video-game rights to EA? One of the objectively WORST ideas possible to make, and one that would've been obvious from a simple look into EA's history in the video-game industry.

The last part has contributed to an inability to maintain positive press coverage, and that plus the long inter-movie periods and the troubled production of Solo has resulted in a really poor advertising cycle as production of Episode 9 preps to begin.

I honestly would see if Kevin Feige is available to give advice.

Advice? Feige unless his brain also turned into a progressive buzzword mush like it happened to many Disney leadership people he needs to walk into KK's office and lock her out.

We are beyond advice.

What's so awful about Lando being bi or something? We need more bi and gay characters!

Do you even realize how utterly meaningless this and patronizing this statement is? Why do we need more bi and gay characters? Why does Lando need to have any sexuality at all?

One of the first things Lando does when he shows up in Episode V is make a pass at Leia.

This is a really good example of how being straight is so expected that it's basically invisible, yet you have one or two characters with some other sexuality and all of a sudden the "why do we need x" questions are everywhere. That's without mentioning how it was basically nonexistent in the movie itself anyway.

Okay, first of all, we do not need more gay or bi characters. What we need are well written characters with agency in their own arcs, relevance to the overall plot, and a good purpose to the story. We can focus on who is wanting to get jiggy with who or what AFTER the writing team gets it together.

Second, if you cannot see the character contrast between lando and han, his advances fostering hitherto unseen jealousy in the later, and also further defining Leia's definite interest in Han by rebuffing his advances, then... well I honestly don't know what that says.

Third, I've always found that kind of aggressive forcing of diversity to be misguided at best, and at worst... I don't want to be inflammatory so I'll hold off commenting worse case scenarios as to what could be behind that kind attitude. Characters do not need to be les, gay, bi, pan, or straight to be appealing, just well written. Some of my favorite movies and TV shows didn't need a romance to be entertaining.

As for films or tv shows with homosexual themes and characters? Sure. I have the same requirement I have of heterosexual characters. Make the romantic and/or sexual aspects of the story relevant and well written please and thank you.

Yeah except people objected to gay characters full stop in Aftermath.

Star Wars is almost all chaste sexuality 101 with no nudity.

https://www.vox.com/2018/5/29/17365958/ ... ic-history

Why should i care about what Vox has toi say? They are in the catering to partisans business, no the selling a franchise to 7 billion people one.

[MyUserName]

Okay, I'm back with a reply. But seriously, I'm not against turning Lando pansexual or whatever. He hit on Leia? So? Maybe he's bisexual, and she was just someone who floated his boat. You're also forgetting the 1970s Star Wars was the all-white Empire vs. the all-white Rebels. Practically. Battle of Yavin? All white male pilots. The ground troops at Hoth? All white men. The Battle of Endor? Practically ALL white men! And need we forget Leia's slave costume? That really made the actress and other people uncomfortable? And most of all, I'd argue gay couples need the most love in modern entertainment since it's been kept off the air for decades by uptight terrified conservatives who fear people freaking out or just loathe that kind of thing - you know, like Rick Berman? I wanna see more gay characters. I can understand if you want to preserve the integrity of the original design, but it was hardly progressive, and given how chauvinistic and xenophobic the all-human Empire was presented as in the old EU? Well, it seems weird that there's so little representation among the bedraggled aliens the Emperor's campaigns of oppression would drive to the Rebellion or more women on the front lines. Certain things need to change. If you want Lando to stay straight, fine. But do NOT act as if some people just despise the idea of putting any gay couple in Star Wars or Star Trek no matter what. And want it kept off movies and TV completely. That's why. I dream of a world of total gay acceptance. And they need more empowerment when the entertainment industry helps to shape our collective societal worldview.

I agree with that in principle, and if anyone at Lucasfilm had any clue how a good Star Wars story goes, and the central themes that MAKE it Star Wars, posts like yours wouldn't have to be made.

Let me make an example of how bad Lucasfilms story telling is when it comes to diversity. In a recent anthology, Chuck Wendig wrote a story about Wuher, the anti droid bartender from the Mos Eisley Cantina. Near the end of the story, out of the blue, and with no relevance to the story whatsoever, Wendig references bea Arthur's character from the oft maligned holiday special, and mentions she's gay. Then returned to the story at hand.

That's like me talking about the weather, slipping in a sentence about the Jewish holocust from WWII, and then returning to talk about the weather. Oh, and of course Wendig responds to accusations of poor writing and forced diversity on his part by throwing homophobe accusations, he's even done it to critics who are publicly out of the closet themselves. I legitimately and without malice feel he's several different kinds of insane. Oh but of course the SJW crowd loves him.

I used to really hate Kevin J Anderson's Star Wars books, but the current writers make him look like he's Chris Clairemont. Sure, Anderson's characters are so one dimensional it's more correct to say they are 0.5 dimensional, but at least he has good ideas for stories, he just has issues sticking his ideas together coherently. The current team of writers, well I can't tell if they are lazy or incompetent.

Lucasfilm is just so far up their own arse it redefines the term. They actually think Rey is a strong female and Kylo Ren is cool. Which is why it'd be better for them to just quit trying to appeal to the woke (I hate that term so much) crowd and focus on looking for writers that have found success working on the brand in the past and let them chart a new course.

[Yukaphile]

Well, Lucasfilm is helmed by incompetents and morons and that should be no surprise at this point. I know that the right-wing trolls are so hateful that they taint and discredit the message of those who just legitimately have valid criticisms and want Legends back or acknowledged, all good goals worth pursuing. So bringing stuff like racial slurs into it (I have seen more than a few right-wing trolls drop the N-bomb) just hurts what could actually work as a movement to help Legends return or get stories with better quality out. That being said, that's no excuse for them to behave as they are.

I'm not very impressed with Chuck. Isn't he the idiot who said "Go write fanfiction!" to people complaining about Lucasfilm's treatment of Legends? That's a tone-deaf reply if ever I heard one. About the Bea Arthur thing, I think I get what you mean now. It needs to flow organically from the story. I do suspect they think of themselves pioneers, trying to get more gay acceptance in entertainment, and to sort of normalize them, which is needed, but they go about it all wrong, from how it sounds. The story should come first, plain and simple. And you can't blame the more moderate "SJWs"/liberals and/or progressives who just like seeing more LGBT inclusion. It's so hard getting it recognized that they put the story as secondary to the political message, which you know, is entirely wrong, but they're just dreaming of a better world. Still, again, no excuse for poor storytelling.

I notice many prominent Legends writers haven't come back. Matt Stover, for example. He was one of my favorite Legends authors. He was just dripping in rich, flowery detail. His Revenge of the Sith novelization more than justifies the film's existence if nothing else other than to get an amazing book like that published. And Drew Karpyshyn! OMG, I simply adored his Darth Bane trilogy and how it was tied to the KOTOR games! I notice he hasn't come back either. Jude Watson. As a kid, I couldn't get enough of her Jedi Apprentice series. That was back when the franchise still had a soul. Comparing the new EU to Legends is like comparing a small-time street performer to George Carlin. Fucking meh, right?

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! They are just poorly done clones of Jaina and Jacen Solo. I'd rather have them back than this new shit Disney and Lucasfilm is coming up with. Also, are the rumors I'm hearing true? That they plan to make a new, "canonized" KOTOR game? If so, that's just pitiful. It's just a ruthless corporate ploy to stuff their pockets full of money. But this is truly a trap they are falling into. If it's too similar to the plot of the original KOTOR games, then Legends fanboys are going to hit the roof because it's just poor treatment of Legends, making an inferior ripoff rather than canonizing Legends. If it's altogether wholly different, then people are still going to get pissed off at the butchering of Legends. You can't win with these jokers. Besides, something as complex and intelligent and thought-provoking as KOTOR 2 is beyond the nimrods working on Star Wars now.

[Karha of Honor]

Well, Lucasfilm is helmed by incompetents and morons and that should be no surprise at this point. I know that the right-wing trolls are so hateful that they taint and discredit the message of those who just legitimately have valid criticisms and want Legends back or acknowledged, all good goals worth pursuing. So bringing stuff like racial slurs into it (I have seen more than a few right-wing trolls drop the N-bomb) just hurts what could actually work as a movement to help Legends return or get stories with better quality out. That being said, that's no excuse for them to behave as they are.

I'm not very impressed with Chuck. Isn't he the idiot who said "Go write fanfiction!" to people complaining about Lucasfilm's treatment of Legends? That's a tone-deaf reply if ever I heard one. About the Bea Arthur thing, I think I get what you mean now. It needs to flow organically from the story. I do suspect they think of themselves pioneers, trying to get more gay acceptance in entertainment, and to sort of normalize them, which is needed, but they go about it all wrong, from how it sounds. The story should come first, plain and simple. And you can't blame the more moderate "SJWs"/liberals and/or progressives who just like seeing more LGBT inclusion. It's so hard getting it recognized that they put the story as secondary to the political message, which you know, is entirely wrong, but they're just dreaming of a better world. Still, again, no excuse for poor storytelling.

I notice many prominent Legends writers haven't come back. Matt Stover, for example. He was one of my favorite Legends authors. He was just dripping in rich, flowery detail. His Revenge of the Sith novelization more than justifies the film's existence if nothing else other than to get an amazing book like that published. And Drew Karpyshyn! OMG, I simply adored his Darth Bane trilogy and how it was tied to the KOTOR games! I notice he hasn't come back either. Jude Watson. As a kid, I couldn't get enough of her Jedi Apprentice series. That was back when the franchise still had a soul. Comparing the new EU to Legends is like comparing a small-time street performer to George Carlin. Fucking meh, right?

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! They are just poorly done clones of Jaina and Jacen Solo. I'd rather have them back than this new shit Disney and Lucasfilm is coming up with. Also, are the rumors I'm hearing true? That they plan to make a new, "canonized" KOTOR game? If so, that's just pitiful. It's just a ruthless corporate ploy to stuff their pockets full of money. But this is truly a trap they are falling into. If it's too similar to the plot of the original KOTOR games, then Legends fanboys are going to hit the roof because it's just poor treatment of Legends, making an inferior ripoff rather than canonizing Legends. If it's altogether wholly different, then people are still going to get pissed off at the butchering of Legends. You can't win with these jokers. Besides, something as complex and intelligent and thought-provoking as KOTOR 2 is beyond the nimrods working on Star Wars now.

Do a New Sith Wars game instead.

[Fixer]

Well, Lucasfilm is helmed by incompetents and morons and that should be no surprise at this point. I know that the right-wing trolls are so hateful that they taint and discredit the message of those who just legitimately have valid criticisms and want Legends back or acknowledged, all good goals worth pursuing. So bringing stuff like racial slurs into it (I have seen more than a few right-wing trolls drop the N-bomb) just hurts what could actually work as a movement to help Legends return or get stories with better quality out. That being said, that's no excuse for them to behave as they are.

It's not the trolls that are tainting the message. It's the defenders use of that tiny minority to misrepresent the far larger majority which is the problem.

It's known as a "Weak man fallacy". Much like the Straw Man fallacy where you create an imaginary version of your opponents position which is easy to knock down instead you take the weakest position or worst aspects of your opponents to discredit the whole.

It could be seen as the as the opposite of the "No true Scotsman fallacy." Where instead of a shifting of the goalposts so that the actions of a an individual do not represent a group identity, the group identity is associated with the acts of a few individuals.

Same thing that happened with the Mass Effect ending controversy and Ghostbusters 2016. I think more and more people are becoming savvy to this kind of underhanded tactic of to deflect legitimate criticism.

If there has ever been an example of this being done to a positive result I'd like to know.

As previous examples go to show it's a stupid way to handle things. You foster further division and resentment in what should be your enthusiastic consumer base and what do you gain? The approval of the recreational outrage crowd on social media and a bunch of "likes".

While all this is happening Solo has bombed to an amount which be way higher than reported after all those reshoots, Star Wars merchandise isn't selling. Enthusiasm for future movies is at an all time low. The last thing you should be do when you're in a hole is continue digging.

[unknownsample]

Let me make an example of how bad Lucasfilms story telling is when it comes to diversity. In a recent anthology, Chuck Wendig wrote a story about Wuher, the anti droid bartender from the Mos Eisley Cantina. Near the end of the story, out of the blue, and with no relevance to the story whatsoever, Wendig references bea Arthur's character from the oft maligned holiday special, and mentions she's gay. Then returned to the story at hand.

That's like me talking about the weather, slipping in a sentence about the Jewish holocust from WWII, and then returning to talk about the weather. Oh, and of course Wendig responds to accusations of poor writing and forced diversity on his part by throwing homophobe accusations, he's even done it to critics who are publicly out of the closet themselves. I legitimately and without malice feel he's several different kinds of insane. Oh but of course the SJW crowd loves him.

Or here's an idea maybe he's treating homosexuality as something perfectly normal, I mean by not treating it as an issue he is if anything behaving contrary to what an "SJW" behaves. Russell T Davies had a similar approach on Doctor Who, have gay characters but don't make a big deal out of it.

[unknownsample]

Why should i care about what Vox has toi say? They are in the catering to partisans business, no the selling a franchise to 7 billion people one.

Maybe its because it's relevant to the discussion , try reading it rather than dismissing out of hand.

[Worffan101]

It's not the trolls that are tainting the message. It's the defenders use of that tiny minority to misrepresent the far larger majority which is the problem.

Can't tell you how many times I've been called a racist for hating TLJ, even though the reasons I hate it are its nightmarish abomination of structure and the way it shits on the non-white (and indeed, non-Kylo Ren) cast.

Same thing that happened with the Mass Effect ending controversy and Ghostbusters 2016. I think more and more people are becoming savvy to this kind of underhanded tactic of to deflect legitimate criticism.

I remember when a few racists made it impossible to call Ghostbusters a structurally incompetent mess with lazy writing, but what happened with the ending to ME3 other than most of the fanbase revolting against that railroaded, nonsensical pile of shit?

(also, MY version would've involved Shep's squadmates fighting alongside them to the bitter end and then Shep blowing the shit out of Harbinger and spending a few months to years in the hospital, but that's just me)

If there has ever been an example of this being done to a positive result I'd like to know.

As previous examples go to show it's a stupid way to handle things. You foster further division and resentment in what should be your enthusiastic consumer base and what do you gain? The approval of the recreational outrage crowd on social media and a bunch of "likes".

Yeah, and those people don't go to watch movies, they just make GIFs with bootleg versions. Which...OK, most people in said recreational outrage crowd aren't that affluent, and that means they aren't seeing the movie at full price that often, if at all.

Meanwhile the Marvel movies are making a shitload by just aloofly not giving a fuck about what the racists say and staying relentlessly positive, and keeping an emphasis on tight stories, a little wisecracking, likable and sympathetic protagonists, and always being both smart enough for the adults and bright and gentle enough for the kids.

While all this is happening Solo has bombed to an amount which be way higher than reported after all those reshoots, Star Wars merchandise isn't selling. Enthusiasm for future movies is at an all time low. The last thing you should be do when you're in a hole is continue digging.

It's THAT bad? I knew the fanboys were pissed and popular interest was waning, but it's that bad???