Chuck's thoughts on KOTOR 2, review, & Kreia?

[Yukaphile]

Is there perhaps a KOTOR 2 review on the horizon? So far all that he's done is reference it briefly during his review of the Imperial Agent in TOR, and that was mostly snark on how it was rushed, so that it was barely finished, with lots of cut content. Other than that, I don't get a sense on if he hated it or liked it. What do you guys feel? Personally, I think KOTOR 2 is the best Star Wars product ever. Utterly brimming over with everything Disney Lucasfilm lacks in its storytelling these days. And Kreia was my favorite character! Given how Chuck has praised the moral complexity of DS9, I wonder if he'd at least respect Kreia's view that people should face their own challenges rather than relying on others for aid? I know given his past comments he just thinks as much people should be saved as possible, but the way she describes it, well, it still feels like a valid point of view for one to have. Sometimes people shouldn't be so quick to render aid, and sometimes people should face their own problems, as it will make them stronger, give them more insights and wisdom. I don't know, it would feel inconsistent if he disliked KOTOR 2. The thing is that even if you hate what she's saying, Kreia more often than not has a point. This is the line that has stuck with me for a decade since I first played the game:

"A culture's teachings, and more importantly, the nature of its people, achieve definition in conflict - they find themselves, or find themselves lacking."

That is a damned powerful quote, because it's absolutely true! How many men and women have descended to utterly loathsome and ugly behaviors during conflict, whether war or not? And how many others have risen to the occasion, finding something noble and grand about themselves they never knew? That they do have the capacity to be a hero, take charge, save others, lead the way, do the right thing? That's about as real as you can get.

Anyway, that's how I feel.

[Independent George]

I am in the minority that prefers 2 to 1... when you include the restored content mod. Without it, the entire game falls apart, particularly at the end; you end up having conversations about things that never happened. Even with the restored content, it's clear that the writers had more ideas than they had time to put into the game, but without it, the narrative is largely incomprehensible.

The first was the better game (because it was, you know... complete), and the better Star Wars game, but the second just lives inside my mental space in a way that the first didn't. A lot of the problems I had with KOTOR are problems that I have with Star Wars in general - for example, Bastila suddenly turning evil by being tortured (not traumatized, not broken... but full Evil Overlord). The dark side stops being a question of moral choice, but rather an external entity that takes over when exposed to strong emotions.

By comparison, Atris' fall in the sequel seems well grounded in the human condition. Every one of her bad decisions makes sense, and every step in her fall is a logical consequence of the previous one, and is shaped and colored by the player's dialogue choices. (I especially loved that mechanic - the actual events that happened in the past might be fixed, but with different dialogue choices, the context for all of them change based on what the player decides.) She is a tremendously unlikable character, but I still found her compelling because of just how human she is. All of her worst traits are familiar, and she becomes a fully realized character despite appearing in the game for barely more than a few minutes.

[Enterprising]

I am in the minority that prefers 2 to 1... when you include the restored content mod. Without it, the entire game falls apart, particularly at the end; you end up having conversations about things that never happened. Even with the restored content, it's clear that the writers had more ideas than they had time to put into the game, but without it, the narrative is largely incomprehensible.

I'm totally with you on that, and prefer 2 over 1, not to say that isn't an awesome game either, it is! Darn gaming tragedy the proper time wasn't given to the developers to finish it. Beyond anything else, at least in comparison to the movies, I'd say it's the darkest Star Wars content you can experience on a screen. Everything else incorporated to it makes it such a different and more immersive experience compared to the first game. Characters had some great depth & subtly about them, and finally, making (at least some) dark side choices didn't resort to cartoonish levels of cruelty or aholery.

For anyone that doesn't know, KOTOR2 is not only on steam available to buy, but was also patched not so long ago to have proper 1080p resolution support. On top of proper achievements and a workshop, so you can add the restored content mod, on top of whatever else that's there taking you fancy.

One of those games I really do hope get's a proper restore & remaster.

[GandALF]

He should do Planescape: Torment instead. It's like Kotor 2 except it makes more sense and they finished it.

I doubt Chuck would be on board with Kreia's Sithy prime directive BS.

[Jonathan101]

I think The Last Jedi was a failed attempt to do a KOTOR 2 style story in film.

At least, an unfilled scene that Johnson wrote of Luke telling Rey not to help out when the nuns are under attack because it will "upset the balance" and make things worse sounds like he confused Luke with Kreia.

KOTOR 2 is fascinating and adds a lot to the mythos...but I'm glad that the majority of other Star Wars Legends-era tales don't really support it's underlying philosophy. I also know that the creator of said game really believed a lot of what he put in Kreias' mouth and earnestly thought he was deconstructing Star Wars, but I think in reality he just misunderstood certain concepts he was taking issue with.

Still, the game added more than it took away overall, despite it's underlying problems and the rushed nature of the product.

[Yukaphile]

Kreia is a very quotable character too. Her views don't just encompass Star Wars lore, but numerous life lessons that feel incredibly human and grounded. Not all of them work, and they do lend themselves to abuse, of course, but damn it if I can't stop reciting her words of wisdom to me sometimes, lol. That stuff about how we achieve definition in conflict? Is absolutely true. We either turn into primitive animals, or become something more. Though that is still left up to outsider perspective, so this feels less absolute than Star Wars typically gets.

I agree with Jonathan. I think Lucasfilm got way too cocky, and tried to emulate KOTOR 2 without understanding the various, nuanced complexities of the game. Atton! Take fucking Atton! Carth Onais is very much your straight-laced, generic Republic soldier, and it's only thanks to the voice acting that he stands out, at least to me. And he hates the rampaging enemy Sith, not the Force users, but those who made the choice to follow Revan. Atton puts a sympathetic face on those enemy soldiers. They were loyal to Revan because Revan was the only Jedi to actually do something about the Mandalorian threat. Or damn it, HK-47! His discussions on the deeper agendas being played out in the Mandalorian Wars and what Revan was doing... it's just amazing to me. Forget all the Jedi Masters you've been searching for. You just found deeper meaning and answers from a rusty old assassin droid.

I love KOTOR 2. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Hey, Jonathan101, what issues do you have with Kreia? I think what she says about the Jedi, the Sith, and the Force is spot-on.

[Beastro]

Hey, Jonathan101, what issues do you have with Kreia? I think what she says about the Jedi, the Sith, and the Force is spot-on.

The issue is how locked into her views and fanatical about them she became what she hated, which is a big point at the ending.

I am in the minority that prefers 2 to 1... when you include the restored content mod.

I haven't played with it, I just know the mod brought back the HK factory and that part of the game was better left out.

The first was the better game (because it was, you know... complete), and the better Star Wars game, but the second just lives inside my mental space in a way that the first didn't. A lot of the problems I had with KOTOR are problems that I have with Star Wars in general - for example, Bastila suddenly turning evil by being tortured (not traumatized, not broken... but full Evil Overlord).

Because both were made with very different outlooks for the intended produces.

KOTOR1 was giving everyone what they wanted and expected from a Bioware Star Wars RPG right down to same world destroying MacGuffin.

KOTOR2 was built as a mulling over and critique of the philosophical ideas around Star Wars thirty years later, done by a group that has a history of taking games and their concepts seriously.

All of this repeated itself with Obsidian with Fallout New Vegas where Bethesda took a preexisting franchise and dumbed it down to what people expected only for the Obsidian side project to draw all the praise for it's deeper, more mature take on the content, which in that case was the original developers continuing as much as they could from where they left off when Van Buren was cancelled and the Bethesda idiocy that definitively took over the name Fallout 3.

[Wargriffin]

Kriea is immensely quotable... but she like most of the villains talks a good game but when it comes to how she actual applies her quote unquote lessons is where her argument falls apart, and you see her for the bitter loon that she is.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I haven't played the mod yet (some day), but I think the incomplete nature of KotoR 2 hurts it quite a bit and that Kotor works better as a full game. Kotor 2 does bring some philosophical excitement to Star Wars, and the exploration of ideas is certainly something I love about the genre.

I just think there isn't enough payoff at the end, and too many of the locations of the game feel barren, empty, and frankly a little bit boring compared to the first game (just compare the Pegasus Mining Facility to Taris, for example). It's a great game, and philosophically meatier than almost any other Star Wars material, but in the end its problems drag it down a bit for me.

I would love to hear Chuck's thoughts on the game, of course.

[cdrood]

Kreia is a very quotable character too. Her views don't just encompass Star Wars lore, but numerous life lessons that feel incredibly human and grounded. Not all of them work, and they do lend themselves to abuse, of course, but damn it if I can't stop reciting her words of wisdom to me sometimes, lol. That stuff about how we achieve definition in conflict? Is absolutely true. We either turn into primitive animals, or become something more. Though that is still left up to outsider perspective, so this feels less absolute than Star Wars typically gets.

I agree with Jonathan. I think Lucasfilm got way too cocky, and tried to emulate KOTOR 2 without understanding the various, nuanced complexities of the game. Atton! Take fucking Atton! Carth Onais is very much your straight-laced, generic Republic soldier, and it's only thanks to the voice acting that he stands out, at least to me. And he hates the rampaging enemy Sith, not the Force users, but those who made the choice to follow Revan. Atton puts a sympathetic face on those enemy soldiers. They were loyal to Revan because Revan was the only Jedi to actually do something about the Mandalorian threat. Or damn it, HK-47! His discussions on the deeper agendas being played out in the Mandalorian Wars and what Revan was doing... it's just amazing to me. Forget all the Jedi Masters you've been searching for. You just found deeper meaning and answers from a rusty old assassin droid.

I love KOTOR 2. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Hey, Jonathan101, what issues do you have with Kreia? I think what she says about the Jedi, the Sith, and the Force is spot-on.

Actually played KOTOR 2 before 1, so I do tend to like it better, but that could be that a lot was already spoiled by that point. However, I barely remember Atton and do remember Carth. I absolutely love Carth's warrior vs. soldier line, even if you could easily argue things the other way under certain circumstances. We actually see something of that in Worf and how he deals with his people. Worf is really more soldier than warrior.