Chuck's thoughts on KOTOR 2, review, & Kreia?

[Madner Kami]

I'd really love to see Chuck's opinion about the philosophical issues raised by the game and Kreia in particular.

[Jonathan101]

Kreia is a very quotable character too. Her views don't just encompass Star Wars lore, but numerous life lessons that feel incredibly human and grounded. Not all of them work, and they do lend themselves to abuse, of course, but damn it if I can't stop reciting her words of wisdom to me sometimes, lol. That stuff about how we achieve definition in conflict? Is absolutely true. We either turn into primitive animals, or become something more. Though that is still left up to outsider perspective, so this feels less absolute than Star Wars typically gets.



Hey, Jonathan101, what issues do you have with Kreia? I think what she says about the Jedi, the Sith, and the Force is spot-on.

What she says about the Force is questionable since since what we know of the Force is that it is meant to be an energy field that surrounds, binds and permeates all living things...in other words, her plan to "kill it" sounds both naive (I think she herself admits it might not happen) and may or may not result in the death of everything everywhere depending on how closely tied living beings are to it. Even if not, the alternative of being cut off from the Force likely wouldn't be quite as liberating as she imagined it to be, sine the Force is far from the only deterministic influence in our lives.

The fact that the galaxy at large sees the Sith and the Jedi as one in the same and that the conflict has gone on for thousands of years doesn't really mean that their conflict is pointless- at the end of the day, it is the Sith who ALWAYS start it, and war, slavery and destruction is ALWAYS their goal, so while it is understandable that the average Joe might not see a difference, and that many Jedi might fail to live up to their ideals, that doesn't mean that the war is as gray and grey as she or any other character suggests.

(Though to be fair, if you press her enough, she just dismisses your points or admits to being a hypocrite, and she might be lying about her true goals, so that is possible...)

Beyond that, some of her stuff about how you shouldn't give charity to beggars so they can learn to stand on their own two feet just sounds Ayn Randian to me, and the fact that the game backs it up by having the person be robbed if you do so (and become a mugger if you don't) is more Diabolus Ex Machina than a truism- it happened IN THAT INSTANCE, but it doesn't mean it HAD to happen, or would have happened in a different time or place.

Not sure I agree that we achieve definition in conflict, though I suppose that might depend somewhat on how far you stretch the definition of "conflict" itself.

Overall, I think she makes a fine villain, but a poor life teacher.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I think Kreia is more interesting in her critique of Light and Dark Side philosophy than she is in advocating her own. For example, her reaction to giving or not giving money to the beggar are interesting, but she's going to chastise you no matter your choice. Does she present a viable alternative? Not really.

I do think that's in character though. As wise (or at least different) as Kreia might seem, she comes with her own baggage

[Yukaphile]

I dunno, I tend to think the Force, when stretching back thousands of years, could be seen as a cruel entity. I think she's right when she talks about how countless lives are lost in order to maintain balance. It's just never-ending. Even Jolee Bindo, who is quite beloved in KOTOR 1, talked about how battles and empires being raised and torn down happen every generation. And the most damage comes from fallen Jedi who start wars, or Sith Lords with their endless sadism and lust for power. As Atton said, to the galaxy at large, they're just too much beings with power, bickering over points of view as planets burn and die. Of course, the real reason that there's still Sith and Jedi is that it sells books and novels and games. Didn't Lucas intend for the Jedi to wipe out the Sith at the end? That they are a cancer on the Force? Meaning that if Vader had killed off the last one for good, then yes, the Force is restored to balance. But even that is open to interpretation, like how... look, I consider the Jedi just slightly better than the Sith. They are too communistic for my tastes, they recruit young children right out of the crib, and dictate how their life is go for them. No attachments. So it is like a form of social conditioning, if you wanna be charitable and not call it brainwashing. For all the evil they do, the Sith are more individualistic. The Jedi by the prequel era were too absolute, too rigid in their thinking, and you can't have 10,000 or so super-light Jedi that are borderline fanatics in their point of view too, and only two super-dark Sith, and have that be balance. My take was you need to go more towards the middle, and the Jedi failed, hence why bringing balance to the Force was Vader needed to kill off both Jedi and Sith to make room for a new order of "worthy" Jedi. So that Anakin could have reformed the Jedi with his human nature, or doomed them, which is what he did. Killed off both the Jedi and himself. And if that's the case, then it really does paint the Force in a negative light. It needs balance, thus, he is destined to bring it, and... that means either killing off both sides, or changing one side. How is that not malicious?

[Jonathan101]

The Sith are individualistic in the sense that they put their own individual wants and desires above all else, at the expense of everybody else. The Jedi might recruit children but the Sith outright murder and enslave them. They are also often portrayed as addicted to the Dark Side and not quite as "free" as they like to imagine themselves. Not giving a shit about the rest of the galaxy and being perfectly happy to commit mass murder to achieve your own selfish ends is not laudable at all.

Jedi are allowed to leave the Order at any time they choose- having no attachments isn't treated as a burden to be carried but a Buddhist style path to wisdom and inner peace. Yes, you could argue very few Jedi choose to leave because, being recruited as children, that is all they know, but you could make a case that any child born anywhere is ultimately a prisoner of their experiences and the Jedi aren't really any different, and that if they weren't recruited they might be a target of someone more nefarious.

Compare the Sith, who are also willing to recruit children and are far more violently abusive to them, and will certainly kill anyone who tries to leave the Order.

You could say that the vast majority of conflicts are caused by Force users yes, but that is more to do with the Force users just having the biggest sticks. No reason whatsoever to think that if you take the Force away the galaxy will somehow become a nicer or less violent place- war, empires and the rest are not unique to Jedi or Sith.

With regards to balance, as you said word of Lucas is that the Sith were the unbalance and Anakin restored it by killing Palpatine, not by slaughtering the Jedi- one powerful manipulative Sith proved greater than 10,000 Jedi after all. The Jedi Order of the Ruusan era are always accused of being stagnant and static and fanatical and what have you, but under their protection the galaxy enjoyed 1000 years of uninterrupted peace, and this peace was ended by a Sith who undermined them, turned their own against them, and ultimately wiped them out.

[Wargriffin]

The problem with the Force is Lucas very clearly set it up as Good /Evil then combined Eastern ideals of Yin/Yang to explain it... and people latched on to the Yin/Yang concept and constantly try to attribute some form of greyness to something that for all intent was cut and dry.

Kriea's bitching about the Will of the Force really just come down to her being unable to accept that something may infact supercede her in the manipulation game... Kriea's a bit of a control freak, though if you play it right you can get her to admit that much.


The Jedi's problem is once again... Writers have latched onto something
The "Jedi as the Stagnant Order that has grown complacent" is only suppose to be a recent development due to the whole They thought they had finally won the conflict with the Sith... and then didn't know what to do when their connection to the force began to become clouded

[hammerofglass]

The Inquisitor storyline delves pretty hard into the philosophy of the Force, especially if you play as a light side or grey Sith. All the more when you pick up a Jedi Padawan companion. I'm pretty sure we'll be hearing Chuck's thoughts on Kreia and the Force sometime in this series.

The big problem with Kreia is that EVERYTHING she says is either a lie or a manipulation, and you pretty much need to play through the whole game as light and dark side to get a coherent idea of what she's about. Half of it is meta-commentary about the game mechanics anyway, like the nature of experience points and how short-sighted the alignment system is and how it doesn't really square with the in-universe philosophy.

[Yukaphile]

@Jonathan101 But there is power in the individual, the freedom of making your own choices, and from what I see, neither Sith or Jedi are all about individual freedom. The Jedi place too much emphasis on the greater good, the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few, and community over the singular or a handful of people. And of course, the Sith preach individuality, but they fall short of it in the end. It's only the "illusion" of freedom they have. This is another area KOTOR 2 shines in. Shows ordinary people who can kill off Jedi and Sith. In many ways, the average people in the galaxy have it better than Jedi and Sith do. I see both Jedi and Sith as just being slaves to the Force. It's just a matter of degree. And perhaps the Sith commit mass murder. That's wrong and I won't defend it. But it's hardly as if the Jedi were at times any better. Standing back and letting millions or billions die in the Mandalorian Wars, for example, simply out of fear of the dark side. Which one is worse? The murderer, or the one who had the power to stop them, but wouldn't step in? I know TOR retconned this, but I find that to be bullshit, tbh. It is undeniable fact without Revan, the galaxy would have fallen to the Mandalorians.

Leave the order at any time... yet there is social conditioning there that has Jedi assuming this superior, familyphobic view. Look at Olee Starstone from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader? And yet, forming attachments is at the core of the human, or mortal, experience. She fails to realize she's a hypocrite until the very end, just as attached to the order as to a lover or romantic partner. So don't tell me that the Jedi weren't attached to the organization they had. They're hypocrites. I always saw them, following the prequels, as these kind of uptight, conservative, stuffy monks afraid of human touch, but that's been bred into them. I don't see the Jedi as having any choice in whether or not they choose to mate because it's being shoved into their heads by those that teach them. It really feels like social conditioning, and it shows the depth to what they're frightened by the dark side. Anakin is treated with kid gloves by the Jedi Council (Matthew Stover's Revenge of the Sith novelization) because they're afraid of what he represents, life raised without the Force. And they feared the Exile for the same reason. To live life without the Force. It is not exaggeration to say the Jedi don't understand the beings they serve in the galaxy, the kind of lives they lead, as they are insulated from it. Sheltered. That's why they can so casually stand by and let billions of people die to the invading Mandalorian hordes. That's not out of character, that is consistent with their beliefs, which only got more dogmatic over time. Dogma is never right. Taking babies from their cribs to draft into a lifetime of public service when they can't make an educated decision on whether or not that's what they want is wrong. They have no say in the matter. They never think about the needs of their individual Jedi. And look at how many Jedi had to hide their marriages in secret. Anakin. Nejaa Halcyon. Plenty of married Jedi in the Legends EU prior to the years of the prequels, so obviously they had to hide it. Hell, Ki-Adi-Mundi is openly married! Everyone knows he is! So the Jedi don't frown on marriage, or taking lovers... just attachments. When they are as attached to the holy, precious Jedi Order as much as a lover or wife. Please. They are hypocrites. This is why I see them as only little better. They are hypocrites without even realizing it. Like Communist Party officials drinking lavishly and living it up in luxury while the common man suffered. Turning a blind eye to mass rape but when a desperate woman offers herself to an officer for protection, he'll abuse said rape victim and take advantage of her just as much as his men did without hesitation. I see the Jedi as being Communists and the Sith as Fascists. And both those ideological philosophies can be abused terribly.

That may be the original intent, but it's not how the rest of the series sold it. I know it's to keep drama going, but fact remains when you stack up Legends and eventually probably the Disney canon up against Lucas's original intent, it's not going to work. And it's a way the Force has a hold over us. Light and dark locked into a constant, never-ending, ceaseless war against itself, just to maintain balance. Balance, by its nature, is not shifted to one side. That's favoritism. Balance is not about favoritism. Balance is truly equal. Either learn to wield both sides of the Force (it can be done) or just refuse to use it. Turn away from the Force and if not that then at least learn to rely more on yourself first, before resorting to it. It's important to learn to live life as a person, and not a blind slave to dogma.

@mathewgsmith Calling everything she says a lie is absolutely false. She's lying about her past, why she's here, etc, etc, but her philosophy is the most real in all of Star Wars. We do achieve definition in conflict, don't we? And the galactic power is just a shell to surround whichever Force power holds on to it. And there really is a difference between a fall and a sacrifice. Or how people are sometimes slaves to their beliefs to the point that they don't even know it. Again, take the Jedi. Just as much slaves to the light as the Sith are to the darkness. If Disney ever remakes a "canon" KOTOR 2, God help us, because they just won't understand her character at all.

[Yukaphile]

One thing to note about Kreia and me is that I take her line about how you need to "betray your belief" as a way to "test" whether that belief is truly strong and can hold up its merits when challenged through conflict. If it isn't strong enough to survive being tested, discard it entirely. I never saw it as betrayal just for the sake of betrayal like some do.

[Wargriffin]

Balance isn't about Equality... Balance is about Equilibrium,

IE everything being in place, IE The Grass is eaten by Antelope, The Lion eats the Antelope, The Lion dies to provide nutrients to the soil that gives rise to new Grass

Sith screw that chain up... by arming the antelope with an ak 47

The Light side and the Dark Side are not Two even halves of the same whole... 'Thats the DND logic excuse used to explain why Jedi can use force lighting... cause the Dark side has all the cool powers, something Zahn bitched the rest of the EU out since they pretty much ran with the Force is just black magic/white magic


the Jedi being presented as stagnant is the Writers latched onto an idea that made it easy to identify the hero in their stories. The Jedi aren't suppose to be cloistered in until the final generations of the original republic

This is ironically a problem KoTor started cause it aped the PT Jedi's presentation to make Revan and Co seem more badass 'and apparently ToR can't help but constantly go down the Republic corrupt, while the empire's just flawed... several thousand years before hand...'

The thing is before the PT, The Jedi of old were presented well as Space knights, attachments were fine, feelings were fine, They were people. After the PT, you had transition period where the Writers clearly had no idea what to do... writing stuffy holier than thou heroes as your central characters does not good fiction make. so for the most part alot of the major named Jedi pretty much were characterized like the Pre PT Jedi... Thats where the whole Mundi is married, Aayla is the temple bicycle etc etc stuff comes up from cause eventually the point got across that the Jedi of the PT era were suppose to have lost their way... and then you got the wave of writers who saw the Jedi as the Villains who got what they deserved and the Empire was good but flawed ideal!