Chuck's thoughts on KOTOR 2, review, & Kreia?

[hammerofglass]

Then that makes me a Sith, because I hate the Jedi, their hypocrisies, their abuse of innocent children, their holier-than-thou superiority complex, and the stale answers they offer that don't matter to the people in the galaxy suffering, many times brought about by wars that were started by Force users. And I find Kreia, Darth Bane in his book trilogy, and Palpatine as presented within the Revenge of the Sith novelization to offer way more wisdom than does the entire 25,000 years of Jedi rule combined. SF Debris himself said it best when the Jedi's philosophy of total peace will always fall short, as will the Sith's preaching about freedom. But I find the Sith more compelling, the mass murder and torture aside.

[GandALF]

Well along with mass murder and torture the Sith's other big shtick is deception

If you play Planescape: Torment you'll find that the character she's based on is in fact, an insane evil witch.

The whole "jedi are teh real evilz" stuff falls apart when you consider that:

a) There are millennia long stretches of time when they have been able to keep the peace
b) Force sensitive children are often targeted by pirate kidnappings or hunted for sport by Trandoshans
c) Members are allowed to leave particularly if they want to get married. That only gets in the way if if they're selfish enough to still want to be "the most powerful Jedi ever" rather than fully commit to their spouse.

Kreia may look old but she's actually an edgy 16 year old who just learned about Nietzsche.

[Wargriffin]

Well along with mass murder and torture the Sith's other big shtick is deception

If you play Planescape: Torment you'll find that the character she's based on is in fact, an insane evil witch.

The whole "jedi are teh real evilz" stuff falls apart when you consider that:

a) There are millennia long stretches of time when they have been able to keep the peace
b) Force sensitive children are often targeted by pirate kidnappings or hunted for sport by Trandoshans
c) Members are allowed to leave particularly if they want to get married. That only gets in the way if if they're selfish enough to still want to be "the most powerful Jedi ever" rather than fully commit to their spouse.

Kreia may look old but she's actually an edgy 16 year old who just learned about Nietzsche.

Speaking of, I think one of Kotor II's flaws is the party is alot more loop sided, It kinda suffers mass effect 2's problem of having too many party members and not enough content to let you appreciate them all usually with much of the content used just getting them.

Atton's a pretty good, He's kinda fucked up but he's aware of it
Brianna... its Grey Griffin being innocent what more could you want
Mical... Nice guy gives a straight honest contrast to Atton
Bao-Dur... I liked listening to his voice, though I only turned him into a Jedi once cause... lord does it not help him, If you got Brianna or you yourself are the warrior Jedi don't even bother
Visas ... Kelly Hu <3 though she is a little too straight laced for nihilus' apprentice.... then again she's less the apprentice and more nihilus' pet

Mandalore... Really liked listening to his voice, IDK why ... ... Now I made myself sad

Hanharr... Angry Wookiee is Angry... and an asshole.

Mira... fucking tease me with a Mira romance and then not follow through you motherfuckers

T3... went full on R2D2

Hk47... Gonna catch hell... but... I'm not a fan of HK's Kotor II protrayal finding him alot better in I

G0T0... okay honest show of hands Who here even bothered to learn the twist about G0T0

[Yukaphile]

Not even saying the Jedi are the real evil here. Just that I find them slightly better than Sith. But that the Sith are more free than the Jedi, while the Jedi are less free, but contribute better than the Sith do. I find either extreme to be misguided.

[Beastro]

Not even saying the Jedi are the real evil here. Just that I find them slightly better than Sith. But that the Sith are more free than the Jedi, while the Jedi are less free, but contribute better than the Sith do. I find either extreme to be misguided.

*chuckle*

Reading that brought to mind the old debate between Prods and Catholics over things like priest marriage with Eastern Orthodox standing aside shrugging their shoulders.

I echo what Wargriffin has said about equilibrium and the problems that have arisen between the association of Jedi with good and Sith with evil based purely on the typical shallow concepts of those two things that are sadly something the Western world has issue with.

That I see comes from people's shallow understandings of what "good" has meant in the Judeo-Christian sense that also has more to do with equilibrium that it does with what is commonly thought of in the religious sense of the word, and is what is being referred to in the opening of Genesis about Creation and things being made "good". Christians who get into silly ideas like carnivores being herbivores before the Fall completely miss that point given that they start out associating things like pain with being morally evil when pain isn't and serves a purpose in all beings who have it, even if it is one that isn't particularly enjoyable.

With that in mind, Star Wars suffers on the conceptual level because it tries to be two things at once - a simple good vs evil action adventure without anything complex underlying things philosophically, while at the same time it does have a deeper philosophy inside of it and the two have existed there since the first film. The problem is being like two personalities stuck in one body struggling to be one person, Star Wars cannot be both morally simple and complex at the same time, and we see this the worst in how the Jedi and Sith are presented that is eternally inconsistent as a result.

If only the Jedi represented those which seek to go along with and maintain balance within the force without a specific place within it and Sith were those of Satanic motivation that seek to break the system and destroy it out of ambition or resentment at having to find a place within the greater world when they seek to be master of all, it would be fine, but then enters the Light and Dark sides that shove their motivations into a Zoroastrian dichotomy that competes with moral system establish between Jedi and Sith as being on a spectrum.

If only it would be Jedi and Sith that are then on the spectrum so you could have Dark Jedi (which I know do already exist, though it's more simply another name for Sith in practice) that seek balance through immoral, willfully evil actions, but also Light Sith who seek imbalance, but do so through a morally decent lens of good conduct that do want to simply dominate and lord over others for the sake of power, but to benefit all by creating a new order, and thus a new balance, however much that may be impossible to do.

Fundamentally Star Wars conflates order with good and chaos with evil, something that might make sense at first thought until you realize those situations where order can become stagnant tyranny and chaos can bring renewal and necessary change, which going back to the basis of Judeo-Christian morality, the former would be evil and the latter "good" in the sense that it is playing its part to ensure and maintain equilibrium.

Not even saying the Jedi are the real evil here. Just that I find them slightly better than Sith. But that the Sith are more free than the Jedi, while the Jedi are less free, but contribute better than the Sith do. I find either extreme to be misguided.

You'll have to go into detail about what you mean by free.

We all seek freedom within equilibrium. Society and culture are tyrannical orders that force things upon individuals and we benefit greatly from that trade off by what we gain from playing along with everyone else. The alternative is the complete, horrible freedom of living on your own where everything you do has an impact upon your life and death is always just a small wrong decision away from taking you.

I do not see any of that between the Jedi and Sith or the Light and Dark sides and it feels to me more like typical modern dislike for restrain and monastic living regardless of what benefit may come with it that ignores the dangers within freedom when taken blindly as a virtue without regard to what I've described above.

What we've seen of the Sith is not a love of freedom, power and that they desire freedom at the expense of others blind obedience while they do not oppose order, they simply wish to enforce their order upon others with them-self at the top to reap all the benefits.

In that regard, they are nothing but simple 19th Century Social Darwinists, and like 19th Century Social Darwinists are merely looking for excuses to impose their will upon the world and excuse their actions when they are on top.

[Darth Wedgius]

I would definitely be a Sith. I mean, we all get lost in the ongoing debate about good and evil, order and chaos, duty and freedom, and we forget the important thing. Black is slimming.

[Wargriffin]

I would definitely be a Sith. I mean, we all get lost in the ongoing debate about good and evil, order and chaos, duty and freedom, and we forget the important thing. Black is slimming.

Yeah... till you see what it does to your complexion and teeth.

[Eishtmo]

What I find the most interesting about Kreia is how much discussion she generates. Agree or disagree, think she's a crazy old bat or a wise philosopher, everyone has something to say on the subject. She says SO much, and we get to know so much about her, her life, her past, her thoughts, her desires, that we can really dig deep into her and find all the different lines that make Kreia Kreia.

All from ONE source too. One game, an incomplete one at that. Do we get even a fraction of that about any of the main line characters without mountains and mountains of EU stuff that isn't even canon any more? Yoda is probably as quotable as Kreia, but we learn virtually nothing about him, not even his species, from the main series (prequels through current).

True, there's more time in an expansive game like this, but that the fact that so much time is devoted to her that like Wargriffin said, the other characters are secondary at best. Hell, the player character almost doesn't matter, except in their relationship to Kreia. The game is about her, and everything is there for us to explore.

Honestly, I think of all the things we could say about her, positive or negative, I think she would be most pleased that we discussed her and her philosophy at all. Her whole message through the game, to me at least, is to THINK about your actions, your choices, your beliefs, and in discussing her, we are forced to do so.

And so she still wins, even if some just think of her as a crazy old witch.

[Madner Kami]

What I find the most interesting about Kreia is how much discussion she generates. Agree or disagree, think she's a crazy old bat or a wise philosopher, everyone has something to say on the subject. She says SO much, and we get to know so much about her, her life, her past, her thoughts, her desires, that we can really dig deep into her and find all the different lines that make Kreia Kreia.

All from ONE source too. One game, an incomplete one at that. Do we get even a fraction of that about any of the main line characters without mountains and mountains of EU stuff that isn't even canon any more? Yoda is probably as quotable as Kreia, but we learn virtually nothing about him, not even his species, from the main series (prequels through current).

True, there's more time in an expansive game like this, but that the fact that so much time is devoted to her that like Wargriffin said, the other characters are secondary at best. Hell, the player character almost doesn't matter, except in their relationship to Kreia. The game is about her, and everything is there for us to explore.

Honestly, I think of all the things we could say about her, positive or negative, I think she would be most pleased that we discussed her and her philosophy at all. Her whole message through the game, to me at least, is to THINK about your actions, your choices, your beliefs, and in discussing her, we are forced to do so.

And so she still wins, even if some just think of her as a crazy old witch.

So very true. She's someone who forces you to think outside your particular box.

[Darth Wedgius]

I would definitely be a Sith. I mean, we all get lost in the ongoing debate about good and evil, order and chaos, duty and freedom, and we forget the important thing. Black is slimming.

Yeah... till you see what it does to your complexion and teeth.

That's a good point. I'll have to get the outfit with the hood...