Chuck's thoughts on KOTOR 2, review, & Kreia?

[Asvarduil]

So, when talking about KOTOR 1 & 2, I tend to equate it to Final Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy V, respectively. K1/FFVI are well-written, engaging stories...but the game aspect of them isn't really engaging, on the grounds that the game is less the point than the narrative.

K2/FFV, on the other hand, are superior games, but for a variety of reasons aren't really amazing stories. In the case of FFV, it's because the whacky story just serves the gameplay. In KOTOR2, though, the story is intentionally diminished in favor of the combat, but does a good job of integrating with it when the story does come into focus.

I do think Chuck should review KOTOR2, on the grounds that - while the story doesn't have the kind of focus on it that the narrative has in KOTOR1 - I feel there's a better symbiosis of game and story. Obsidian knew when to back off of the story and give players a chance to play with their powers and skills, and then when to pull the focus back to the lead-up and denouement of the Onderon Civil War, and the Exile's return to Malachor V. That being said, I'm not sure that - given Chuck's own narrative focus - Final Fantasy VI wouldn't be a game that better-plays to his strengths.

[Beastro]

It's like a choice between Communists and Fascists. It's both two piles of shit. Why not go with a third party?

I find this amusing since Fascism began to break the dichotomy between Communism and the Free Market and fashion a system that had the benefits of both and negatives of neither.

One of it's original names was The Third Way/Position.

[Wargriffin]

The Zazi El conversation is Atypical deconstruction talk 'and why I got tired of deconstructions overall'

Kotor II is not smart enough to present its argument in a balanced way so it fundamental changes the relationship so it can be right. Its why Kreia will say SOMETHING no matter what you do.

Saying everything was the Jedi masters fault due to arrogance and an inability to understand is laughable once you know context, Kotor II uses that to its advantage because most peoples only heard about the characters of Exar Kun

Exar was not Baas fault, anybody with a rudimentary understanding of of Exar Kun would know that.

Revan was going down his path long before He ran off to the Mandalorian Wars as established in Kotor I

Essentially Its Victim blaming at its finest, Its Malak whining about Revan turning him down the Dark path. except that had the proper comeback

"I'm sorry Old friend... Yes I started you down the path, but YOU choose to continue down it."


Kotor II ultimate problem is Story wise, It raises interesting questions... but Its very much locked in its mindset what the right answers are to those Questions and will not have you say otherwise.

Its why the Finale is alot more unsatisfying even if you looked forward to killing Traya all game.

[CharlesPhipps]

The problem of KOTOR 2 are the same as Pillars of Eternity and Lonesome Road. I.e. The problems of Chris Avellone and philosophical nihilism. If you don't actually agree with philosophical nihilism then the entire thing falls apart.

Kreia: The Force is evil, manipulative, and should be destroyed. Isn't it better to live life as a free being without the Force and your own morality?

My Exile: No. That's stupid. You are a crazy person who doesn't understand the Force, faith, or religion.

Kreia: Then you're wrong!

Basically, this exact conversation happens in Fallout: New Vegas.

Ulysses: House, NCR, and Legion are all awful. It's better to nuke the world again and not attempt to rebuild the past world.

Courier: That is completely mental.

Ulysses: Well, you're WRONG.

Pillars of Eternity.

Thaos: The gods aren't real and thus the universe is pointless unless we enforce totalitarianism!

Me: I'm literally the priest of a god who grants me magic.

Which brings me to the biggest flaw of KOTOR2.

The constant never ending kissing of Revan's ass. It bends over backwards to justify him/her and make it so he was ACTUALLY trying to save the universe from an EVEN BIGGER THREAT. That didn't work for Grand Admiral Thrawn and doens't work for Revan.

[Alinis]

Given you can talk Ulysses down in several different ways he seems a odd choice to use as a example of the problem of the writer.

Beyond that Kreia is obviously evil and a unreliable narrator and in Pillars of eternity the lore establishes early that the power of priests from their belief in the deity and the tenets of their religion not directly from their gods.

Beyond that the Engwithans were so obsessed with the idea of gods and their needing to exist to provide order to the universe that they were willing to create their own and wipe out their own civilization to keep the secrets of the gods orgin's is interesting and ultimately says a lot about them as a culture.

But that is straying rather far from the Topic of KOTOR 2 and likely deserves its own discussion especially if Pillars and its sequel ever gets reviewed here.

[CharlesPhipps]

Kreia and Ulysses are still villains but there's a large sense in the writing they're meant to be profound when you can make a serious argument they aren't. You're meant to think they have a point and if you do have a character who is like Luke Skywalker and thinks, "The Force is objectively good." Then it kind of rolls off.

But yes, Pillars is a game worth discussing as it runs into a lot of, "What is a god" and "What is religion" questions not QUITE addressed by the story.

[Beastro]

The problem of KOTOR 2 are the same as Pillars of Eternity and Lonesome Road. I.e. The problems of Chris Avellone and philosophical nihilism. If you don't actually agree with philosophical nihilism then the entire thing falls apart.

...

Pillars of Eternity.

Thaos: The gods aren't real and thus the universe is pointless unless we enforce totalitarianism!

Chris' only contributions to PoE was Grieving Mother and Durance. By the time of PoE's development his relationship with the rest of Obsidian was tainted with him being partially excluded and partially him withdrawing from the company he'd begun to hate being a part of.

The overall story and it's problems lay in the lay of Josh Sawyer, a man obsessed with balance in games that he not only made PoE an overbalanced bore fest gameplay wise but also built the entire game around the themes of meaningless and futility that make the story equally tiresome.

There's a reason Josh has acquired a reputation in places for being a humourless kill joy when it comes to making games. I'm quite frankly surrprised he made FONV as entertaining as much as he did.

It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't beat you over the head with it, like all the companion quests do that they are all predicable once you finish a couple and notice the pattern.

Chris does like to pick over similar things, and both Kreia and Ulysses are there to help... I hate the word, but deconstruct both settings. Given my issues with Star Wars and the chimera of symbolism and mythology within it, I appreciate him taking a critical eye to it.

In Fallouts case, I don't care given that I feel too many have too much of a progressive eye towards the setting, especially in the case of the NCR which is the only consistently non-ideological power across the games. They simply want to be, and if they repeat the same old mistake then that isn't a bad thing, it is the curse of every generation to repeat the same cycle throughout time, but at least the NCR doesn't seek to remake Mankind and the rules governing us anew with the FO2 Enclave coming in second place for simply being very exact at the criteria they laid out on saving Mankind without much ideology compared to the Master or Caesar (I just wish they'd had more time and effort spent on making a devil's advocate for their plans than what we got with the joke of a President, but the game was terribly produced).

Oh and Ulysses. I tuned him out and and his blabber that didn't even have a leg to stand on like Kreia.

As for GM and Durance. GM was a load of nonsense and postmodernism and got tuned out too. Durance, though, he was interesting glimpse of an fanatical ideologue and the real motivations underneath their righteous exterior that are laid bare once you get to him after the big reveal about Eothas.

You're meant to think they have a point and if you do have a character who is like Luke Skywalker and thinks

Kreia has a point, but it's more on the meta level over how the symbolism and the mythology of Star Wars are screwed up and as shallow as a puddle. It's a good shaking the franchise needed and far better handled than The Last Jedi.

I faced a similar reaction to the Nameless One in Planescape Torment once I read the bit that what he's done is very very slowly destory the fabric of the entire DnD setting, which the produced my reaction "WTF would I want him to stop given how much I hate it's built on a moral and theological level?".

But yes, Pillars is a game worth discussing as it runs into a lot of, "What is a god" and "What is religion" questions not QUITE addressed by the story.

It doesn't. At all.

It can't when the story centers around never finding questions to answers and the effect that has on people.

The stories "answer" is like the feeling you get playing it: An apathic shrug once you realize you're never going to get what you're seeking both ingame and outside playing it.

[Yukaphile]

I think Kreia's perspective, as I have said, has more credence when stacked up against Legends as a whole. The constant, never-ending battles that don't seem matter compared to the resident deity of their universe. In the new canon? Who knows? She was referenced in Legends? So calling her an evil freak there might be more appropriate. I honestly see Kreia as being the most honest character in Star Wars, at least when it comes to her nihilistic views. Can I at least ask you guys, even if you hate her, what you think her best quote is?

[Alinis]

Hmm I am honestly torn when it comes to Favorite Kreia quotes between "It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it." and "There is much weight, much craving attached to such a tiny thing of light. For the male, it seems to have inordinate importance. But we shall leave such male preoccupations for philosophers and cultural historians."

The first quote because its always the first quote that pops in my head when I think of Kreia while the second I admit I like purely because it makes me chuckle.

[Beastro]

I think Kreia's perspective, as I have said, has more credence when stacked up against Legends as a whole. The constant, never-ending battles that don't seem matter compared to the resident deity of their universe. In the new canon? Who knows? She was referenced in Legends? So calling her an evil freak there might be more appropriate. I honestly see Kreia as being the most honest character in Star Wars, at least when it comes to her nihilistic views. Can I at least ask you guys, even if you hate her, what you think her best quote is?

I wouldn't call The Force a diety unless you're lookinh at things from a similar perspective of Spinoza.

Now that I think about it, Kreia's viewpoint has much in common with Joseph Conrad's, who looked on the universe as a great machine without thought or purpose that only seems to torment Mankind.