Chuck's thoughts on KOTOR 2, review, & Kreia?

[Eishtmo]

One of the busiest active threads in the subforum, and yet the one thing it's still missing is Chuck's thoughts on those.

I suspect that he'd more than happy to make his thoughts known, if someone paid him to review the game. After all, it is kind of what he does for a living.

[Wargriffin]

You can infer what he would say based on the other reviews. He would take into account her actions throughout the game which show her to be manipulative, treacherous and cruel regardless of how eloquent she is.

As for the edgy anti-Jedi stuff, in his review of "Monster" he defends Yoda on attachments and points out the "unpleasant reality". In his analysis of the flaws of the Jedi in Kotor 1 he states "that isn't a sign that the philosophy itself is flawed, merely that it sets a standard that is difficult to live up to -doing the right thing often is".

I think the main issue with Jedi Philosophy is It confuses Emotional Detachment/Suppression with Emotional Control and its become so rigid 'most likely with out the Sith to test them' That its very much like the extremist monks from the Tales of the Buddha who shun all earthly desires 'even food' hoping to achieve enlightenment... The prolonged Peace, yet the continuing loss of connection to the force made the Jedi hardline in a direction but as the Buddha says

" If the string is too loose, the instrument won't play
If too Tight, The string will break"

The reason so many people consider Obi-wan the standard all Jedi should live up to is He deals with his emotional burdens instead of suppressing/avoiding the issue, As Qui-gon told him Embrace his emotions for what they are... The force will guide you through them but don't let them consume you.

Obi-wan Faces his Fears, Acknowledges his hatred... It says alot about Obi-wan when he is more then willing to comfort the men who killed his loved ones with compassion in their dying moments but it also allows him to be human in he simply can't believe that Vader can be redeemed

Its like Jolee said, Passion can be controlled, Learning to deal with your passions instead of outright shunning them is what the Jedi should teach but thats ALOT HARDER especially when your raising a bunch of children who are all potential super powered despots waiting to happen...

I mean You can mock the PT Jedi for their rigidness all you want... The legends NJO was a fucking comedy with how many times neophytes became dark jedi and caused havoc. "Kyp and the Sun Crusher comes to mind"

[GandALF]

I think the main issue with Jedi Philosophy is It confuses Emotional Detachment/Suppression with Emotional Control and its become so rigid 'most likely with out the Sith to test them' That its very much like the extremist monks from the Tales of the Buddha who shun all earthly desires 'even food' hoping to achieve enlightenment... The prolonged Peace, yet the continuing loss of connection to the force made the Jedi hardline in a direction but as the Buddha says

" If the string is too loose, the instrument won't play
If too Tight, The string will break"

The reason so many people consider Obi-wan the standard all Jedi should live up to is He deals with his emotional burdens instead of suppressing/avoiding the issue, As Qui-gon told him Embrace his emotions for what they are... The force will guide you through them but don't let them consume you.

Obi-wan Faces his Fears, Acknowledges his hatred... It says alot about Obi-wan when he is more then willing to comfort the men who killed his loved ones with compassion in their dying moments but it also allows him to be human in he simply can't believe that Vader can be redeemed

Its like Jolee said, Passion can be controlled, Learning to deal with your passions instead of outright shunning them is what the Jedi should teach but thats ALOT HARDER especially when your raising a bunch of children who are all potential super powered despots waiting to happen...

I mean You can mock the PT Jedi for their rigidness all you want... The legends NJO was a fucking comedy with how many times neophytes became dark jedi and caused havoc. "Kyp and the Sun Crusher comes to mind"

You're interpreting things based on the old EU Jedi code which was not created by Lucas and was developed before Lucas had fully explained the Force and Jedi. The PT Jedi do not act like the Vulcans the old version of the code suggests: Windu has some controlled anger towards Dooku in the Geonosis arena and Yoda makes fun of Obi-Wan losing a planet.

You've old EU legends version of the code which is pre-Mortis and pre-Yoda arc (possibly even pre-prequels I think):

There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force

Then you've got the Canon version which has been adapted to fit with Lucas' ideas:

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

So the updated version is more accurately about balance (dark, yet light) than about suppression or shunning.

[Wargriffin]

My only problem with that is you're using the Reconstruction Answer IE the after the fact answer that paints the Jedi as flawed but good people which followed the deconstructions like Kotor 2 and such. which when put into context of the PT makes the goddamn thing fly apart since several of the key conflicts is Anakin and the Jedi -outside of Qui-gon, Obi-wan and maybe Yoda- need the Jedi to be overall Vulcan like for it to work and to hammer home that the Order is not what it use to be.

I mean, If the Jedi don't shun Feelings Qui-gon and Obi-wan can't be mavericks to the establishment?


I guess if you wanted something that would logically divide the Jedi... going back to an independent organization separate from the Republic might work since alot of the Jedi's biggest plunders are getting tangled up in political affairs.

[Enterprising]

The reason so many people consider Obi-wan the standard all Jedi should live up to is He deals with his emotional burdens instead of suppressing/avoiding the issue, As Qui-gon told him Embrace his emotions for what they are... The force will guide you through them but don't let them consume you.

Granted it's been sometime since I watched all the prequels, but I don't recall Qui-Gon saying anything of the sort in TPM? All I do remember is something at the very start of the film about being mindful of the future, but not at the expense of the moment or such like.

Obi-wan Faces his Fears, Acknowledges his hatred... It says alot about Obi-wan when he is more then willing to comfort the men who killed his loved ones with compassion in their dying moments but it also allows him to be human in he simply can't believe that Vader can be redeemed

Obi-Wan didn't do any of that though? Instead of putting him out of his misery, he just walks away and lets Anakin get burned alive beside the lava. Rest of his enemies he just kills them flat-out, only dying moments I recall outside of Anakin is Darth Time-filler.

Rest of the time as a character he gives sarcastic quips, and let's himself get pretty riled up/pissed off, especially when dealing with Anakin. He also didn't even bother to try contesting with Windu over the whole "I don't trust him" thing. You'd think the guy that's taught Anakin for 15 years, fought battles at his side, and entrusted his life to him on countless occasions, would have at least something to say in response to a statement like that.

The standard of all Jedi he is not. (Couldn't resist from doing a Yoda thing.)

[GandALF]

My only problem with that is you're using the Reconstruction Answer IE the after the fact answer that paints the Jedi as flawed but good people which followed the deconstructions like Kotor 2 and such. which when put into context of the PT makes the goddamn thing fly apart since several of the key conflicts is Anakin and the Jedi -outside of Qui-gon, Obi-wan and maybe Yoda- need the Jedi to be overall Vulcan like for it to work and to hammer home that the Order is not what it use to be.

I mean, If the Jedi don't shun Feelings Qui-gon and Obi-wan can't be mavericks to the establishment?

Qui-gon's problem with establishment is that they've grown complacent. He correctly infers that the Sith are still around while Ki-adi Mundi and such are adamant that they're extinct. Yoda points out that there are plenty of other Jedi who are as arrogant as Anakin. The order's problem in the PT is that they haven't faced a true threat in forever and are unprepared, nothing about shunning emotions.

It's not so much about deconstructions or reconstructions, it's that old EU writers were given free reign to make assumptions take aspects and interpret them as broadly or as narrowly as they wanted, regardless of the original intent. Lucas even mentioned that he saw continuity in "legends/canon" terms waaaaay back in 2005 because the EU went off in other directions.

Even taking the old Jedi code a writer could see "there is no emotion" and come to the conclusion that Jedi are literally forbidden from having any emotions and write about how "the Jedi are repressed and yadda yadda yadda" or they could pay attention and notice that even though "there is no death", the Jedi still hold funerals so therefore the first line is probably a metaphor for self-mastery rather than the literal absence of emotion.

[AllanO]

You're interpreting things based on the old EU Jedi code which was not created by Lucas and was developed before Lucas had fully explained the Force and Jedi.

I'm curious do you mean Lucas more extensively explained the Force and Jedi with the prequels etc. or that he has subsequent to the original trilogy come up with the definitive complete account of the Force and Jedi?

I ask because as I mentioned earlier it seems like the Force is one of those things that is not fully explicable and this comes up in all kinds of Star Wars stuff from Lucas derived and beyond.

I was reminded of another bunch of relevant quotes on the nature of the Force by Obi-wan from an older novelization of Star Wars: A New Hope. The key one here being...

No one, not even the Jedi scientists, were able to truly define the force.

Mostly I was just tickled by the idea of Jedi Scientists....

[GandALF]

I'm curious do you mean Lucas more extensively explained the Force and Jedi with the prequels etc. or that he has subsequent to the original trilogy come up with the definitive complete account of the Force and Jedi?

I ask because as I mentioned earlier it seems like the Force is one of those things that is not fully explicable and this comes up in all kinds of Star Wars stuff from Lucas derived and beyond.

I was reminded of another bunch of relevant quotes on the nature of the Force by Obi-wan from an older novelization of Star Wars: A New Hope. The key one here being...

No one, not even the Jedi scientists, were able to truly define the force.

Mostly I was just tickled by the idea of Jedi Scientists....

Well it's not extensively explained, it's mainly shown and not told but The Clone Wars provide more detail particularly the Mortis and Yoda arcs.

There is also a behind the scenes video on the 2011 Blu-ray release of the films of Lucas in the TCW writer's room describing the light side as being "joy" as in selfless spiritual eternal happiness and the dark side as "pleasure" as in selfish materialistic base short-term (as in quick and easy) happiness. The challenge being that someone has to balance out the dark side of them that desires pleasure in order achieve joy.

So the whole eudaimonic idea of Jedi trying to achieve eternal happiness through selflessness and self-mastery doesn't fit well with overly literal interpretations of "there is no emotion".

[Yukaphile]

My biggest problem is that innocent babies are just drafted into a lifetime of unfeeling public service, that tells them what they're supposed to want, and to try to suppress their emotions rather than control them. There is no freedom in the matter. Labyrinth of Evil touches up on this about how Qui-Gon felt the Temple was a place Jedi were "programmed" and not really allowed to grow into Jedihood. I see it as them socially conditioning young children who lack the experience and emotional maturity to mount a sophisticated argument to never love someone, and that denies them a great deal of joy. The fact so many Jedi had to marry in secret (as proven with all the formerly married Jedi we see in the Legends timeline prior to the prequels) is just evidence that their philosophy doesn't work. No one should be allowed to hide their feelings for someone else, their love, and the desire to couple and mate which bring you such immense happiness. But that is the Jedi in a nutshell. They see it as possession. Greed. I get what Lucas was going for, I really do. That old-style romanticized forbidden secret love affair romance between Anakin and Padme, like the kind seen in Man in the Iron Mask. But it led to so much horrible unfortunate implications and pretty much turned the Jedi into droids, to be programmed at will, and to never think of yourself, because that's selfish. If I had to choose between an inner enlightenment which opens up the universe or a loving and supportive partner, fuck that shit, I'm choosing the girl, every single time. I mean, that was KOTOR 2's points. Non-Jedi and Sith marry, fall in love, lead very happy lives, raise a family together, and are not consumed by their passions. What is it about the Jedi and Sith that warps this, just in equally horrible ways for both sides?

[CharlesPhipps]

My biggest problem is that innocent babies are just drafted into a lifetime of unfeeling public service, that tells them what they're supposed to want, and to try to suppress their emotions rather than control them. There is no freedom in the matter. Labyrinth of Evil touches up on this about how Qui-Gon felt the Temple was a place Jedi were "programmed" and not really allowed to grow into Jedihood. I see it as them socially conditioning young children who lack the experience and emotional maturity to mount a sophisticated argument to never love someone, and that denies them a great deal of joy. The fact so many Jedi had to marry in secret (as proven with all the formerly married Jedi we see in the Legends timeline prior to the prequels) is just evidence that their philosophy doesn't work. No one should be allowed to hide their feelings for someone else, their love, and the desire to couple and mate which bring you such immense happiness. But that is the Jedi in a nutshell. They see it as possession. Greed. I get what Lucas was going for, I really do. That old-style romanticized forbidden secret love affair romance between Anakin and Padme, like the kind seen in Man in the Iron Mask. But it led to so much horrible unfortunate implications and pretty much turned the Jedi into droids, to be programmed at will, and to never think of yourself, because that's selfish. If I had to choose between an inner enlightenment which opens up the universe or a loving and supportive partner, fuck that shit, I'm choosing the girl, every single time. I mean, that was KOTOR 2's points. Non-Jedi and Sith marry, fall in love, lead very happy lives, raise a family together, and are not consumed by their passions. What is it about the Jedi and Sith that warps this, just in equally horrible ways for both sides?

I think Anakin is the worst person you can look at to talk about the Jedi because the Jedi we meet are kind, compassionate, socially well-adjusted, and loved by their peers. They furthermore have good childhoods and parent-substitutes.

Anakin was a vicious scumbag who murdered children because he didn't want to leave the Jedi to get married.