Avatar, The Laster Airbender: Fire

[phantom000]

I disagree with Chuck's theory on Azula's breakdown. The idea that she does not know how to deal with a set back seems far too simple. I mean she had been defeated multiple times in the second season and it never seemed to phase her once.

I think what broke her was she was starting to question herself, specifically from Ozai. When he ordered her to stay behind she started to understand that she was just a minion to be commanded, just like her brother. As she thought about it more and more she thought that if her Azulon had told Ozai to kill her instead of Zuko it would not have made any difference. He would have been willing, even eager, to kill her just as much as Zuko and her mother Ursa would have done exactly the same thing to protect her as much as Zuko.

[Winter]

I think it has more to do with Mai and Ty Lee betraying her, or rather that's where her down fall really began. With those two always under her control by fear she was also certain of herself and her place in the world but when both turned on her at the exact same moment, more or less, she lost her self control and was ready to kill Mai just for standing up to her only for Ty Lee to stop her and take away her revenge.

And then she is ready to take her place at her father's side only for him to dismiss her and give her the role of Fire Lord just as he creates the mantle of Phoenix Lord so that Azula will still have to answer to him for the rest of her life. I think this is what results in Azula turning on anyone and everyone who crosses her line of vision as everyone she has ever known has turned on her one way or another so that means everyone is her enemy and much be dealt with at any and ever moment.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

I haven't watched this series but know a bit about it from reviews and the like and the ending kind of turned me off from checking it out for myself. didn't all the past Avatars tell Ang that he should kill Ozi? didn't Ang choose his own conscience over what was best for the world?

also, there seems to some Taoism in this series and in Taoism, the idea of balance isn't about equalizing good and evil but destroying evil and since Ozi is what TV Tropes calls a Complete Monster, isn't him just existing an imbalance in the world?

[Attercob]

I haven't watched this series but know a bit about it from reviews and the like and the ending kind of turned me off from checking it out for myself. didn't all the past Avatars tell Ang that he should kill Ozi? didn't Ang choose his own conscience over what was best for the world?

also, there seems to some Taoism in this series and in Taoism, the idea of balance isn't about equalizing good and evil but destroying evil and since Ozi is what TV Tropes calls a Complete Monster, isn't him just existing an imbalance in the world?

Ang's past incarnations didn't explicitly instruct him to kill Ozai. Each one gave different advice: First told him if he took no action, then he'd be responsible for the bad things that Ozai did. Second told him that he didn't have the luxury to search for a solution that may not exist, and he had to be decisive even if he didn't have all the information, which might mean killing Ozai instead of searching for an alternative. The third told him that he had a responsibility to the world before himself, so his personal moral objections to murder were irrelevant.

You are right, that Ang had at least two opportunities to kill Ozai during the final fight, which he opted not to. First when he redirected Ozai's lightning bolt else ware, instead of right back at Ozai. The second when he essentially subdued Ozai, and instead of dealing a killing blow, he powered down his Avatar State. Yes it did seem as though he was preferencing his own ethics by refraining from killing him. However, he was able to fulfill his responsibilities with out killing Ozai, essentially by taking the monster out of the man. Ang's solution did kind of come out of no where, and the show didn't tell you he had this new ability until right when he needed to use it (there was a sudden flashback of Ang receiving a new power, that hadn't be shown to the audience before). So that, combined with very little explanation to the rules for this new power Ang used, made Ang's solution seem like a Deus Ex Machina.

I can see why that might turn you off. But despite this seemingly clumsy ending, I really liked the story's willingness to tackle a serious moral conundrum, and give rational voice to several different perspectives. A lesser show would have painted a black and white moral issue, where the protagonist takes a hardline moral stance, and wins out over evil. Avatar carefully explored the different sides of the issue in a surprisingly adult way, for a show aimed at children. That's essentially been my praise for the series as a whole.

[TrueMetis]

Gotta disagree there, to me the clumsy way it handled it means it didn't tackle a serious moral conundrum, Aang is right, everyone else is wrong. And while the past avatar might not explicitly have meant "kill Ozai" the way it was framed leave little room for other interpretations.

Especially because Aang's solution doesn't actually solve jack shit. Ozai wasn't a threat because of how good a fire bender he was.

[Lizuka]

I've really never at all considered the series's finale very satisfying. There are worse endings certainly (hell, I can think of worse in this same franchise - at least it beats spending 40 minutes fighting a giant mech that came out of nowhere and then having the villain who spent the whole time being wholly evil face turn for no reason, and speaking of pointless face turns cramming in one for a minor character who hadn't shown up in three seasons) but the only thing I think actually works is the Zuko and Iroh reunion.

Beyond that you've got...

- Everything involving the Lion Turtle and the copout that is the Aang / Ozai issue. It's just a mess where it really does read like Aang putting personal philosophy over the good of the world and the world making something up to help justify that decision. Although even if Aang had actually killed him taking that approach still would have been awkward because I don't feel like they properly established him having trepidation on that front beforehand.

- Azula's breakdown comes relatively out of nowhere, and her actual defeat is pretty underwhelming due to not having it be Zuko. Yeah, it'd be obvious, but it's better than crowbarring Katara into it solely because she didn't have anything better to do.

- Speaking of nothing to do, the rest of the Gaang is essentially just treated as an afterthought with no real time for anything more substantive with them. Granted the fleet is a genuine threat that needs to be addressed but it's not particularly depicted as one, and they don't really do anything to establish any sort of personal connection.

- The Ba Sing Se issue being handled by effectively a bunch of one-shot characters just felt like filler. It was certainly cool to see them again, but it's such a non-event in the plot and glanced over so much that I don't really see any reason it's actually there besides Iroh needing something to do.

- To be honest I really didn't even understand the point of the Zuko's mom tease? Not just as a sequel hook thing, like, the show never made much of a thing of wondering where she had been so I've never really understood why I'm supposed to care about getting an answer. Given that they really shouldn't have even brought the subject up if they weren't going to address it.

- The series really could have used more of an epilogue than it actually got. Came out later but I think a good point of reference is the Gravity Falls finale, where the actual problem is resolved with like 20 minutes left to go for them to go tie up various loose-ends afterward. And that finale had less time to spare than Avatar's did to begin with.

Like, I don't think it's a disaster or anything, there are some good gags and good action, but I don't find it a terribly fulfilling conclusion on pretty much any level.

[Sir Will]

Gotta disagree there, to me the clumsy way it handled it means it didn't tackle a serious moral conundrum, Aang is right, everyone else is wrong. And while the past avatar might not explicitly have meant "kill Ozai" the way it was framed leave little room for other interpretations.

Especially because Aang's solution doesn't actually solve jack shit. Ozai wasn't a threat because of how good a fire bender he was.

Well I'm sure ruling with an iron fist helped. But either way, Aang beat him. He was captured and no longer a threat. Combined with beating Azula and the airships, the fire nation was willing to back down.

I do agree that the new power and how things were handled was kind of a cop-out.


As for Lizuka's issue with Azula's defeat, I don't know, I found her going crazy kind of interesting. Seeing her break after her 'friends' (underlings) turned on her. And Zuko didn't beat her but proved once again the man was by putting himself in danger to save Katara.

[TrueMetis]

Gotta disagree there, to me the clumsy way it handled it means it didn't tackle a serious moral conundrum, Aang is right, everyone else is wrong. And while the past avatar might not explicitly have meant "kill Ozai" the way it was framed leave little room for other interpretations.

Especially because Aang's solution doesn't actually solve jack shit. Ozai wasn't a threat because of how good a fire bender he was.

Well I'm sure ruling with an iron fist helped. But either way, Aang beat him. He was captured and no longer a threat. Combined with beating Azula and the airships, the fire nation was willing to back down.

I do agree that the new power and how things were handled was kind of a cop-out.

Except why would the Fire Nation be willing to back down? The loss of a dozen Airships and the retaking of Be Sing Se is literally nothing compared to the dozens of ships and thousands of men that would have been lost during the Siege of the North. Which didn't so much as cause them to pause as far as we're shown. Even with this loss their still in the most powerful position by a lot.

Ozai's captured, okay but the entire military structure that he put in place is still there. I can buy some number of the Fire Nation willing to accept Zuko as Firelord. But he's going to have people trying to kill him from the very second he Azula was beaten in the hopes of continuing the war/putting Ozai back on the throne. (bets that the first attempt was by a Fire Sage?) Zuko's going to spend the next decades dodging assassin's, and that's if he makes all the right moves. He's 17, and the one guy who could help him has instead decided to fuck off to Be Sing Se to sell tea, so he won't. (Aside Iroh is also like, super dead. I give him a month before someone manages to kill him, and who knows who it will be that tries, an Earth Kingdom citizen going for revenge, or a Fire Nation warmonger who hopes that killing Iroh might cause the war to re-erupt.)

I mean just ask Napoleon how being captured makes you "no longer a threat". If Zuko does anything but immediately execute Ozai, he's going to be a threat, and even that's got significant downside that Aang killing him in battle wouldn't. Zuko's looking at near immediate civil war as people try to take him off the throne, and even if he kills Ozai to get rid of that threat, you've now given those against you a martyr to rally behind as they claim the power-mad traitor son has killed his father to secure power. The anti-Zuko Propaganda writes itself.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

Ozi would still be a threat because in the interquel comic, Zuko thought it would be a good idea to ask Ozi for advice and Ozi tried to force his own twisted worldview on him.

and what about the Taoism stuff I mentioned, or am I taking the "destroying evil" part of that philosophy to literally?

[Zoinksberg]

I think perhaps you should watch the series before offering more than a passing opinion. If all you know comes from reviews then you don't know much.