Chuck's thoughts on KOTOR 2, review, & Kreia?

[Yukaphile]

I go to the novelization, and yeah, they were, to a degree, afraid of him. He wasn't fitting into the life of a Jedi. They were trying to make him forget his mother, give up that attachment, rather than go back and free her to set his mind at ease. It's the same disconnect Yoda has about "let things go." It's cold and out of touch. It ignores the needs of the individual because they're "selfish." Again, the Sith are about individualism. The Jedi are about communism. Maybe I'm too close to this, but I hate the idea of abducting babies from the crib to be indoctrinated with Jedi dogma. Logically, it should be someone older, and there's no reason they can't adjust well and still have attachments. It's basically removing the freedom from that individual when they have no understanding of what that means. Jedi Apprentice #8. The Day of Reckoning shows it's usually up to the parents to decide on whether or not the Jedi should go, but as a baby. They can't decide yet because they're not old enough. And that's the point. Jedi only want "pure and innocent" babies so they can raise them with their views. Sounds like social conditioning to me. My cynical side calls it brainwashing. And the irony here is that the Sith from Darth Bane onward would recruit older apprentices. It's sad when the Sith value the freedom of the individual more than the so-called loving, self-sacrificing Jedi who are very absolute on choice (refer to Yoda insisting that Anakin chose to fall to the dark side to get an idea here, which you know, he did, but he had more choice than all those innocent babies do). Pure hypocrisy at its worst.

You're distorting the truth. Yes, he murdered kids, and that's inexcusable, I won't defend it, but he was already married in secret. Where did you get the idea that he wasn't? He had no one to turn to. If he could have been open with his marriage, maybe Obi-Wan could have helped him. Jolee Bindo gives better views on love and how to control yourself being in love than Yoda ever could. In the novel, Anakin was right to question that the Old Master had never been in love. He needed proper guidance in how to love without letting passion run you. And no one gave him that. It's the way the Jedi failed Anakin. Still, he did make his own choices. But wanna know something? The Legends EU goes into depth with this too. He rationalized it as them being orphans and that they were being brainwashed and thus were better off dead. It's wrong, it's evil, and it's not justified, but it at least has him not be a cackling cartoon supervillain and gives him a real human sense of why someone would do something so terrible, namely that he's lying to himself.

[Wargriffin]

I go to the novelization, and yeah, they were, to a degree, afraid of him. He wasn't fitting into the life of a Jedi. They were trying to make him forget his mother, give up that attachment, rather than go back and free her to set his mind at ease. It's the same disconnect Yoda has about "let things go." It's cold and out of touch. It ignores the needs of the individual because they're "selfish." Again, the Sith are about individualism. The Jedi are about communism. Maybe I'm too close to this, but I hate the idea of abducting babies from the crib to be indoctrinated with Jedi dogma. Logically, it should be someone older, and there's no reason they can't adjust well and still have attachments. It's basically removing the freedom from that individual when they have no understanding of what that means. Jedi Apprentice #8. The Day of Reckoning shows it's usually up to the parents to decide on whether or not the Jedi should go, but as a baby. They can't decide yet because they're not old enough. And that's the point. Jedi only want "pure and innocent" babies so they can raise them with their views. Sounds like social conditioning to me. My cynical side calls it brainwashing. And the irony here is that the Sith from Darth Bane onward would recruit older apprentices. It's sad when the Sith value the freedom of the individual more than the so-called loving, self-sacrificing Jedi who are very absolute on choice (refer to Yoda insisting that Anakin chose to fall to the dark side to get an idea here, which you know, he did, but he had more choice than all those innocent babies do). Pure hypocrisy at its worst.

Yes the Parents are ultimately the ones that make the choice, but again the Kids are free to leave if they so choose. Parents usually do so cause A; They know the Jedi will raise them well and B: Force sensitive kids tend to attract trouble like a lightning rod 'IE Trandoshan raiders love hunting force sensitives' or C: Worse Become the Trouble

The real reason to get them while their Young... Well The NJO pretty much has a LONG LIST of supposedly 'more adjusted' individuals who upon getting a greater grasp of what the could do... Went MAD with power and killed a fuckton of people. Why? Cause they saw having the Force naturally as THEIR gift but not as something they had to be responsible with which tends to be the issue with teaching Adults/Teens vs Kids

Anakin had alot of choices, If He wanted to go to check on his mother, Obi-wan wouldn't have been against it for personal reason 'seeing that Qui-gon would take Obi-wan home for simple Family visits'

However, It had alot more difficulties to it, Namely Tatoonie isn't a Republic world, Its controlled by the Hutt Cartels and Shmi was currently a slave. as far as Anakin knew

Anakin refused to go see his mother until he could figure out a way to free her and the other slaves. 'Which as pointed out would basically require the Republic to invade Tatoonie to wrest it from Hutt control' The Jedi kept wanting him to let go cause it was clearly burdening him with a goal he himself couldn't actually achieve.

Its like the Talk with Yoda


Anakin is skimping on the details, so Yoda is giving him the Death is a natural part of life and He should prepare himself for the individual's passing. 'IE what many consulars will tell you when you have a critically ill loved one,' Cause thats the Details Anakin gave for Yoda to work with.

____



You want to leave the Sith on the other hand... GOOD FUCKING LUCK

The Sith are not about individualism, The Sheer amount of actual Brainwashing, torture induced theology from Savage's training should clue you in on that one. The Sith are all about Talking a good game but never actually living up to it. Hell it only takes a few years before Bane's already questioning his choice to off so many other promising students when he thinks Xannah's not living up to snuff... then he decides to pull an Oro and just hijack her body and be immortal. since Immortality is kinda the Sith's be obsession since they can't do the Force Ghost trick properly.

Hell Maul is actually an abducted Infant, raised Sith by Palpy

[Yukaphile]

The social conditioning is too strong for them to ever consider it. They are taught to ignore their needs in service of the greater good, both subtly and actively. Look at how Olee Starstone condescendingly looks down on Jedi who left the Order, and sneered that at least they never left for love. It's like the idea of coupling is a disease to them. A sure path to the dark side. It terrifies them that much. Again, that Jedi had to marry in secret is proof their philosophy doesn't work. There is no reason they can't be Jedi and marry too. And I mean a loving marriage. I actually feel sorry for Ki-Adi-Mundi's wife (wives?) because it's clear it's a loveless marriage.

I also know that Luke's Jedi Order never forbade romantic attachments. So give Luke that. The Jedi of old denied it to their members because they were too dogmatic and, honestly, seems like old conservative stuffy monks.

Do you have any proof that Obi-Wan would have allowed it? From my understanding, the Jedi didn't allow it. They just wanted to teach him to give up attachments after having formed them in his nine years of life, because he wasn't an unfeeling droid, he was a human being. It's proof the Jedi philosophy when too extreme is a failure. Also, I see flaws in your argument here, primarily that Jedi procured 20,000 Republic credits, but presumably he could have conjured up something more useful out there if he had had the means. Hell, Obi-Wan promised Han 17,000 credits once they got to Alderaan. They could have easily freed her, but that's an attachment, and Jedi frown on attachments.

Skimping on the details because he'd be kicked out of the Order if his marriage was revealed. He's not the only Jedi to be married in secret. Though Nejaa Halcyon actually got it in that you fight like hell to save your loved one, but if they die, you do learn to let go. Fuck, look at the Revenge of the Sith novelization! Obi-Wan was tempted to cry over the death of Anakin and all the butchered Jedi and children, and Yoda sternly told him to stop, that he was being selfish. Seriously, mourning and venting is a natural part of the healing process. Suppressing it is just unnatural. It does paint the Jedi as emotionless "others" who are like cogs in the machine.

Darth Bane was highly individualistic and embraced the true idea of freedom the dark side offered. So were other Sith. Bane was the closest Sith I could ever say might have been honorable. Granted, they're mass murderers, so I can't defend them. Just the Sith seem to somehow be more naturally honest than the Jedi with their passions and feelings. I'd rather feel than feel nothing any day.

[Wargriffin]

Except There is bunch of them THAT DID leave,, Hell there is bunch in the order that wants to change it. and picking the caricature of the Deconstruction era Writers prime example of a Elitist Jedi isn't helping.

Anakin didn't just want to Free Shmi, He wanted to right the wrong he saw Tatoonie was... it was not a case of we need X amount of money. Since Replubic credits ain't worth much on Hutt worlds. It was Anakin wanted to liberate the fucking planet.

The Revenge of Sith novel is Clearly written with the Same mindset of Kotor II, The Jedi are wrong lets beat you over the head with it... while doing the OTHER deconstruction trope that the era loved

"Villian Worship" and don't tell me there isn't a large chunk of that going on.

Yoda telling Obi-wan not to weep is BS since Yoda breaks into tears when he feels order 66 happening, Even Lucas compares it to a Grandfather hearing his grandchildren die so I don't know what Stover was on when he thought that bit up.


and for the Record,

The Jedi have NEVER kicked anyone out of the Order for being Married, infact being expelled from the Order was saved for the most grevious of Taboos. and FYI the people who kept their marriages in secret were doing so for more self centered reasons then the Jedi council will be mad at me.

whats it tell you about Anakin if he considers keeping his status of a Jedi more important then being Padme's husband.


Ki's problem is before BW and KoTor fucked it up trying to appeal to the more cineatic aspects of the series. Him having multiple wives was introduced in a comic series before Attack of the Clones came out and had the No marriage rule introduced. This was to keep in line with All the other older comics portrayal of the Jedi being very normal.

[GandALF]

Vows of chastity are pretty normal for chivalric orders.

Ki-adi's situation was retconned into being an exception because of a Cerean population crisis.

It's not like the films or anything else have made out that Jedi are the ONLY good guys and everyone else is dirt, just that they play a central role which requires a significant commitment.

[AllanO]

So note in the core movies the only former Jedi we meet (that I remember) is Count Dooku and initially Mace and co. seem relatively well disposed to Dooku despite his leaving the order. So if Lucas et al. were trying to imply any shame or distrust for those who left the order they did not do a good job.

It seems like the Sith we meet are less about individualism and more about egoism. There own narrow self-interest trumps any other principle or concern at best they might allow for a little enlightened self-interest. They also tend to embody a certain zero sum view of the world, their freedom necessarily means other people's subjugation and so on.

That being said there is certainly something troubling about the way say Yoda dismisses Anakin as too old and some depictions of the whole Jedi younglings raised without knowing your parents (as when in Rebels Kainan admits to Ezra that he never knew his parents). And this seems to be an intentional framing by the creators? So the whole child recruitment stuff is meant to pretty clearly a rather troubling aspect of the Jedi, but compared to the Sith's rampant fascism, slaving and so on kind of small potatoes.

[Madner Kami]

So it's a terrible decission to accept non-babies into the order, as teenagers, grown-ups and adults somehow inevitably become corrupt with the power and murder-rape everything left and right. But it is perfectly fine for a Jedi to not agree with the Order on a fundamental level and leave, as they'll never ever in any case whatsoever will become corrupt by their power and start to murder-rape everything left and right. Yeahright. The Order is fine. Nothing to see here, ladies and gentlemen, move along.

Same for not being willing to train Anakin. He's what? 10 years old? And he is refused on the grounds that he loves his mother and is afraid to loose her. Sure, the Order maybe can not save the entire slave population of Tatooine without some major political fallout, but not being able to just buy one single effing slave and releasing her where she can lead a safe and comfortable life? Are you kidding me?

And what of Anakin if he wouldn't be weasled into the Order by Obi-Wan? Here we have the Child of Legend, the dude with the highest mediclorian-count (or however this is spelled) in recorded history, the person who might be prophesized as the Great Balancer-Bringer. What happens to him if he isn't taught Jedi-values, but allowed to run free... well, "free" as a slave on Tatooine, where he can and will be treated like property and where he certainly never ever whatsoever will come into a situation where he just explodes and murder-rapes everything left and right with his magic powers. What the actual flying fuck? They refuse to train him on grounds of him being emotionally unstable, but instead of stabilizing him and teaching him control of both his magical gifts and his emotions, they prefer to let nature run it's course *slowclap*

[CharlesPhipps]

The social conditioning is too strong for them to ever consider it. They are taught to ignore their needs in service of the greater good, both subtly and actively. Look at how Olee Starstone condescendingly looks down on Jedi who left the Order, and sneered that at least they never left for love. It's like the idea of coupling is a disease to them. A sure path to the dark side. It terrifies them that much. Again, that Jedi had to marry in secret is proof their philosophy doesn't work. There is no reason they can't be Jedi and marry too. And I mean a loving marriage. I actually feel sorry for Ki-Adi-Mundi's wife (wives?) because it's clear it's a loveless marriage.

I think social conditioning is a poor choice because the Jedi were raised to put other people first and do. The idea they have a belief that doing good works is more important than family is neither unnatural or necessarily wrong. They are not broken or diseased but simply have a altruistic vocation.

So it's a terrible decission to accept non-babies into the order, as teenagers, grown-ups and adults somehow inevitably become corrupt with the power and murder-rape everything left and right. But it is perfectly fine for a Jedi to not agree with the Order on a fundamental level and leave, as they'll never ever in any case whatsoever will become corrupt by their power and start to murder-rape everything left and right. Yeahright. The Order is fine. Nothing to see here, ladies and gentlemen, move along.

The Jedi Order allow people to leave the order and do what they want with their lives. However, the responsibility of Jedi power means they have to be raised into it. They are doing this not for themselves but because they believe it's important to protect the normal people.

The normal people who hate and fear them despite all the good the Jedi do. Who call them babysnatchers and emotionless droids.

[Wargriffin]

The normal people who hate and fear them despite all the good the Jedi do. Who call them babysnatchers and emotionless droids.

They still aren't as bad as Marvel Civilians though

[Yukaphile]

@Wargriffin And... Yoda was the very same one who told Anakin to "let go." So... that makes Yoda a hypocrite. He clearly mourns the loss of the Jedi, however briefly, because that's normal. This is further expanded on with the Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader novel in that even the characters in the book had to call out that Olee Starstone was being a hypocrite, for she had one of those very attachments she claimed to hate, and was too attached to the Jedi Order to let it go and carry out the Jedi Council's final order, to run and hide.

@GandALF Except... babies can't make a vow of chastity. They are too young to understand. In short, the Jedi Council has no business regulating what goes on in a Jedi's bedroom. I know it's small potatoes to mass genocide, but I can't help but picture me in that place, taken as a child to be raised with certain views, so that in another life I might prioritize unfeeling public service over a romantic attachment, and for me, doing good is important, but I equally want to find love out of life. That's one of my goals. My thinking is the Jedi have no freedom in the matter, nor any more than I would in that situation. Does it protect them from being exploited? Perhaps. But it is a flawed hierarchy within the Jedi organization and thus why individuals such as Qui-Gon challenged it and bent the rules more than once.

I should just chalk this up to Lucas's bad writing for the prequels. He really wanted to have a forbidden love affair between Luke and Leia's parents, because it feels more old-fashioned, something out of ancient times. Problem is that led to so many unfortunate implications that painted the Jedi as total hypocrites. If the series is correcting it these days, that's good, but ultimately, meaningless compared to how badly Kathleen Kennedy and Disney are butchering the franchise.