Off-topic Star Wars discussion

[MrL1992]

While the Trek fan base is split over Discovery, it is comparatively handling itself far better. No videos attacking other fans for the 'wrong' opinion, no channels dedicated to deconstructing every little petty thing they hate about it.

It's faint praise, though. I suspect part of the problem with Star Trek is that fanbase has been split so many times that this is just the latest thing. I'd guess that Star Wars is mostly OT versus PT groups, at least until this new set of films came around. Star Trek has TOS purists, anti-DS9ers, anti-Voyagers, anti-Enterprisers, anti-JJers... So if you want to make a huge rant about Discovery, which subset of Trek fans is your audience? Anyway, I'm fairly certain those videos exist, but I have no desire to seek them out.

I could be wrong about that. It's also still not "cool" to be a fan of Trek like it is for Star Wars, so that surely changes the metrics too. For good or ill, Star Wars is mainstream now in ways that even the astounding success of the OT didn't facilitate.

It can happen to all old generational franchises, i see it in Doftor Who too. Possibly its because SW is just so huge and mainstream that any grievance is amplified.

[Karha of Honor]

While the Trek fan base is split over Discovery, it is comparatively handling itself far better. No videos attacking other fans for the 'wrong' opinion, no channels dedicated to deconstructing every little petty thing they hate about it.

It's faint praise, though. I suspect part of the problem with Star Trek is that fanbase has been split so many times that this is just the latest thing. I'd guess that Star Wars is mostly OT versus PT groups, at least until this new set of films came around. Star Trek has TOS purists, anti-DS9ers, anti-Voyagers, anti-Enterprisers, anti-JJers... So if you want to make a huge rant about Discovery, which subset of Trek fans is your audience? Anyway, I'm fairly certain those videos exist, but I have no desire to seek them out.

I could be wrong about that. It's also still not "cool" to be a fan of Trek like it is for Star Wars, so that surely changes the metrics too. For good or ill, Star Wars is mainstream now in ways that even the astounding success of the OT didn't facilitate.

It can happen to all old generational franchises, i see it in Doftor Who too. Possibly its because SW is just so huge and mainstream that any grievance is amplified.

Lucas and Disney gave plenty of reasons for grievances.

It's like it went from bad/okay by accident to worse.

[bronnt]

I have the opposite view on Holdo but I view it in the larger sense of Poe is a traitor.

Poe acts like he's second in command of the Resistance but he's been demoted because he didn't answer to LEIA. Yes, I'm entirely okay with roguish heroes who don't play by the rules. However, that runs into a brick wall like the Coyote chasing the Roadrunner into a painted tunnel when it's the most beloved heroine in sci-fi history (rivaled only by Ripley). Poe disobeyed Leia, got hundreds of Resistance soldiers killed for a meaningless victory, and then demanded to know classified information.

He's...been...demoted.

And never acts like it.

Trusting in Holdo is not trusting in Holdo, it's trusting in LEIA. Which Poe doesn't and he has nothing but my contempt and disdain for that.

Well yeah, that's the flipside of this. He was very underutilized in TFA, where the focus was much more heavily on Rey and Finn, but he was also charismatic and likeable in TFA. This movie turned him into an asshole and a loose cannon. He was clearly set up to look like a jackass with the way this movie unfolded.

It's fine if you want to take your charismatic male lead and have a female in authority give him his comeuppance. But she needs to actually demonstrate that she's competent in her job, which Holdo never demonstrates until moments before she dies. It makes the audience feel like the message is "She's right because she's a woman," rather than, "She's right because she knows what she's doing."

[Fixer]

I have the opposite view on Holdo but I view it in the larger sense of Poe is a traitor.

Poe acts like he's second in command of the Resistance but he's been demoted because he didn't answer to LEIA. Yes, I'm entirely okay with roguish heroes who don't play by the rules. However, that runs into a brick wall like the Coyote chasing the Roadrunner into a painted tunnel when it's the most beloved heroine in sci-fi history (rivaled only by Ripley). Poe disobeyed Leia, got hundreds of Resistance soldiers killed for a meaningless victory, and then demanded to know classified information.

He's...been...demoted.

And never acts like it.

Trusting in Holdo is not trusting in Holdo, it's trusting in LEIA. Which Poe doesn't and he has nothing but my contempt and disdain for that.

There's so many problems with how they tried to portray Poe as a loose cannon and then flip Holdo to make her "right all along".
The first is how the Universe works and that all the information is withheld from the viewer. Throughout the movie things suddenly appear from offscreen, or brand new technobabble is spouted to solve or foil the next immediate problem.

Did Poe save the entire resistance in his disobeyal of orders? He risked the fleet (which could have jumped away without stranding the fighters, as they're hyperspace capable) and Leia didn't countermand the orders to the rest of the wing. Would the Dreadnought have destroyed the fleet if it had followed them?
Since all the Resistance fighters were destroyed after they were tracked through Hyperspace doesn't Poe's action result only in a net gain?

Would Leia's command to retreat have ended the movie in the first 5 minutes with a complete Resistance defeat as surely as if the First Order had been even marginally competent.

The answers to this question is, stop trying to apply logic to a script in where events simply occur to progress the author's intent. Poe is wrong guys. Don't think about it.

The next part is Holdo. In British OTC there's the CLM or Command, Leadership, Management course which covers the trinity of aspects of leadership theory for British Officers. I don't lie when I say that Holdo would hard fail on all three accounts. In fact Holdo would probably make an excellent example of what not to do in a leadership scenario short of collapsing on the ground hyperventilating.

When it's revealed Holdo had a plan all along, it's not a Jellico style twist where it turns out he actually was a competent officer with his alternate command style. All the unnecessary decisions, demoralising speeches that left crew fleeing for the escape pods remain. That one scene where suddenlly she says how much she likes Poe while chatting with Leia feels so disingenuous. I honestly thought that once the rebels left the cruiser she'd signal the First Order they were now helpless and to come pick them up, as it looked like she was manipulating the Princess. There I was thinking again.

You throw on top of this the absurdity of the whole plan. It looses the resistance all their valuable military assets on the hope that the First Order that's following them doesn't scan slightly harder than normal to spot the entirely visible shuttles using suddenly available stealth technology to go to that conveniently nearby planet that just appeared from off screen.

What exactly is the message of this story here?
If someone appears entirely incompetent and their plan looks like it will doom you all, don't question their leadership because even in their plan will lose you all your assets leaving your organisation a shadow of it's former self, trust me it is the best possible outcome all things considered.

I suppose that would be the same argument that the story writing group is making to Disney to keep their jobs.

After that whole series of nonsense. What really got me was the strange dreamlike unreality of everything that happened on Krait. Subconciously it was all those random teleportations and the illogical nature of unfolding events (and the dumbest line ever spoken in Star Wars) that left me in such bizarre mood when I left the theatre. It took some time to parse why exactly so much was wrong with it.

[MrL1992]

While the Trek fan base is split over Discovery, it is comparatively handling itself far better. No videos attacking other fans for the 'wrong' opinion, no channels dedicated to deconstructing every little petty thing they hate about it.

It's faint praise, though. I suspect part of the problem with Star Trek is that fanbase has been split so many times that this is just the latest thing. I'd guess that Star Wars is mostly OT versus PT groups, at least until this new set of films came around. Star Trek has TOS purists, anti-DS9ers, anti-Voyagers, anti-Enterprisers, anti-JJers... So if you want to make a huge rant about Discovery, which subset of Trek fans is your audience? Anyway, I'm fairly certain those videos exist, but I have no desire to seek them out.

I could be wrong about that. It's also still not "cool" to be a fan of Trek like it is for Star Wars, so that surely changes the metrics too. For good or ill, Star Wars is mainstream now in ways that even the astounding success of the OT didn't facilitate.

It can happen to all old generational franchises, i see it in Doftor Who too. Possibly its because SW is just so huge and mainstream that any grievance is amplified.

Lucas and Disney gave plenty of reasons for grievances.

It's like it went from bad/okay by accident to worse.

The only real one I have in regards to Disney Star Wars is regarding the Video Hames. Killing LucasArts (and all their internal studios) and handing the keys exclusively to EA.

[Karha of Honor]

While the Trek fan base is split over Discovery, it is comparatively handling itself far better. No videos attacking other fans for the 'wrong' opinion, no channels dedicated to deconstructing every little petty thing they hate about it.

It's faint praise, though. I suspect part of the problem with Star Trek is that fanbase has been split so many times that this is just the latest thing. I'd guess that Star Wars is mostly OT versus PT groups, at least until this new set of films came around. Star Trek has TOS purists, anti-DS9ers, anti-Voyagers, anti-Enterprisers, anti-JJers... So if you want to make a huge rant about Discovery, which subset of Trek fans is your audience? Anyway, I'm fairly certain those videos exist, but I have no desire to seek them out.

I could be wrong about that. It's also still not "cool" to be a fan of Trek like it is for Star Wars, so that surely changes the metrics too. For good or ill, Star Wars is mainstream now in ways that even the astounding success of the OT didn't facilitate.

It can happen to all old generational franchises, i see it in Doftor Who too. Possibly its because SW is just so huge and mainstream that any grievance is amplified.

Lucas and Disney gave plenty of reasons for grievances.

It's like it went from bad/okay by accident to worse.

The only real one I have in regards to Disney Star Wars is regarding the Video Hames. Killing LucasArts (and all their internal studios) and handing the keys exclusively to EA.

What others would you have if you would own a lot of Disney stock?

[TGLS]

They've made 9% over the past year. No grievances there.

[Worffan101]

On one hand, I'd point out that Hitchcock made a big deal out of entertainment > plausibility. Why does Batman use kung fu and throw Batarangs, why do the people being stalked by Jason Voorhees never go to the cops? Because it's boring. It's boring if the cops come in thirty minutes into the horror movie and arrest the murderer. It's boring if Batman shoots the Joker.

At the same time, suspension of disbelief is a thing that the audience has to maintain but the artist has to earn. Nobody watching "The Room" can suspend their disbelief because it's so fucking insane.

So when I nit-pick that Holdo's competence is really questionable at best in TLJ, it's because I really like Dr. Satler from Jurassic Park and am frustrated that she's wasted on a part that's transparently poorly written.

I dunno, I get what they were trying to go for but it just flopped on every level.

[Karha of Honor]

They've made 9% over the past year. No grievances there.

ESPN idiocy and Star Wars are still dragging it down.

[CharlesPhipps]

I generally trust Leia over Poe.

Maybe those bombers would have saved a lot of lives.