Babylon 5: By Any Means Necessary

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Beastro
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Re: Babylon 5: By Any Means Necessary

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Artabax wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:19 pm The resolution was through the Liberal Facade. EarthGov did not want to be openly evil and write the Law to say "Kill them all" or "Oren the Government stooge has absolute Power, mwah hah ha!" To maintain the liberal Facade, they wrote the Law is vague terms and Sinclair exploited that vagueness.

Question: Why?

What does the EA gain from doing this? Imagine the US having an issue with the UN buildings cleaning staff and using as a reason to kill them all... all so they can look bad in front of every nation on Earth?

This isn't the Boxer Rebellion with Germany trying to come off tough against a mutual enemy of the West, this involves their own people. If anything, EA would be wanting B5 to be running as smoothly as possible to come off looking good while reserving anything like this for their treatment of Mars.
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Re: Babylon 5: By Any Means Necessary

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Beastro wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:59 pm
Artabax wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:19 pm The resolution was through the Liberal Facade. EarthGov did not want to be openly evil and write the Law to say "Kill them all" or "Oren the Government stooge has absolute Power, mwah hah ha!" To maintain the liberal Facade, they wrote the Law is vague terms and Sinclair exploited that vagueness.

Question: Why?

What does the EA gain from doing this? Imagine the US having an issue with the UN buildings cleaning staff and using as a reason to kill them all... all so they can look bad in front of every nation on Earth?

This isn't the Boxer Rebellion with Germany trying to come off tough against a mutual enemy of the West, this involves their own people. If anything, EA would be wanting B5 to be running as smoothly as possible to come off looking good while reserving anything like this for their treatment of Mars.
Probably because they're screwing the pooch with Mars. Just a few episodes/weeks ago, Mars was having open fighting/revolution. Looking like you can't control your own colonies might be viewed as weak, so they want to bring down the hammer and make it look like Earth isn't ripe for the taking.
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Re: Babylon 5: By Any Means Necessary

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FaxModem1 wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:29 pm
Beastro wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:59 pm
Artabax wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:19 pm The resolution was through the Liberal Facade. EarthGov did not want to be openly evil and write the Law to say "Kill them all" or "Oren the Government stooge has absolute Power, mwah hah ha!" To maintain the liberal Facade, they wrote the Law is vague terms and Sinclair exploited that vagueness.

Question: Why?

What does the EA gain from doing this? Imagine the US having an issue with the UN buildings cleaning staff and using as a reason to kill them all... all so they can look bad in front of every nation on Earth?

This isn't the Boxer Rebellion with Germany trying to come off tough against a mutual enemy of the West, this involves their own people. If anything, EA would be wanting B5 to be running as smoothly as possible to come off looking good while reserving anything like this for their treatment of Mars.
Probably because they're screwing the pooch with Mars. Just a few episodes/weeks ago, Mars was having open fighting/revolution. Looking like you can't control your own colonies might be viewed as weak, so they want to bring down the hammer and make it look like Earth isn't ripe for the taking.
This happened before the Mars rebellion.
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Re: Babylon 5: By Any Means Necessary

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I think the mood on Earth was established as being reactionary well before this. Earth almost lost the Mimbari war and by lost I mean, "was almost the victim of genocide." Then their attempts to build Babylon Five as a UN in Space prove to be a complete failure ala the League of Nations except the failure is that 4 stations vanished or blew up due to terrorism.

Earth is DONE with Space.

Their patience is zero and they want B5 as a weapon, not a civilian station or place of diplomacy.
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Re: Babylon 5: By Any Means Necessary

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FaxModem1 wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:29 pm Probably because they're screwing the pooch with Mars. Just a few episodes/weeks ago, Mars was having open fighting/revolution. Looking like you can't control your own colonies might be viewed as weak, so they want to bring down the hammer and make it look like Earth isn't ripe for the taking.
It's one thing to take an axe to your neighbor in your back yard, it's another to do it in front of the whole neighborhood at a public event.

I mean, even people like the Nazi's put on their best face when the Red Cross inspected concentration camps precisely because they didn't want anyone to know how nasty they were, even if news of their behavior was slowly leaking out of Europe.
CharlesPhipps wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:33 am I think the mood on Earth was established as being reactionary well before this. Earth almost lost the Mimbari war and by lost I mean, "was almost the victim of genocide." Then their attempts to build Babylon Five as a UN in Space prove to be a complete failure ala the League of Nations except the failure is that 4 stations vanished or blew up due to terrorism.

Earth is DONE with Space.

Their patience is zero and they want B5 as a weapon, not a civilian station or place of diplomacy.
B5 a weapon? In what way? It proved to be an effective forward base to operate from, but that in and of itself isn't a weapon. As a political weapon? It might have been used that way in the way basing the UN out of New York was a way to keep it under US hegemony and ultimately working towards US interests, but where it's based and how it's operated doesn't indicate it's anything like that.

The best analogy for EA is Imperial Japan before WWII as the Western Clans witnessed China being picked apart and experiencing Western tech used against them first hand who then committed themselves to making sure they adopted everything they could get from the US to make sure Japan didn't face the same fate while concluding that the only way to not only remain autonomous but successful was to build their overseas empire.

Considering what Crusade set up, where the heart of the show after Season 1 was going to be about continued EA obsession with, and development of, Shadow technology the analogy gets closer to point.

The big question for me is why this was considered a bad thing by JMS, but the guy himself has his own anti-authority itch to scratch like his mentor Ellison did. My only big problem with the post-B5 setting is a lack of a Vorlon loyalist holdout faction that mirrors the Drakh and the Shadows other minions.
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Re: Babylon 5: By Any Means Necessary

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Earth's issues with Babylon 5 basically are that it IS being used as a civilian base of operations when they wanted it as a military base to move troops and rapid response with Starfuries. It's why it's military commanded and we get to see them deploy troops early on with Franklin's dad.

Eventually, this results in the station breaking away from Clarke.
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Re: Babylon 5: By Any Means Necessary

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CharlesPhipps wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:43 am Earth's issues with Babylon 5 basically are that it IS being used as a civilian base of operations when they wanted it as a military base to move troops and rapid response with Starfuries. It's why it's military commanded and we get to see them deploy troops early on with Franklin's dad.

Eventually, this results in the station breaking away from Clarke.
Except that it takes an escalation in threat for Earth to send better defences.

The rest you describe I don't see as any different than the military using a local port as a way point for an operation or for basing a anti-piracy squadron out of.

Now that that's brought to mind, it's odd that B5 only has small craft protecting it and lacks a dedicated squadron of warships to protect it and its surround hyperspace ala the squadrons based out of Chinese concession enclaves like Hong Kong and Tsingtao.
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Re: Babylon 5: By Any Means Necessary

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I think Earth is still rebuilding since it's entire military was almost entirely wiped out.
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Re: Babylon 5: By Any Means Necessary

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CharlesPhipps wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:41 am I think Earth is still rebuilding since it's entire military was almost entirely wiped out.
I remember looking into the fluff and finding the EA fleet numbers to be weird starting with them having several hundred Omegas.
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Re: Babylon 5: By Any Means Necessary

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Beastro wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:25 am
FaxModem1 wrote: Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:29 pm Probably because they're screwing the pooch with Mars. Just a few episodes/weeks ago, Mars was having open fighting/revolution. Looking like you can't control your own colonies might be viewed as weak, so they want to bring down the hammer and make it look like Earth isn't ripe for the taking.
It's one thing to take an axe to your neighbor in your back yard, it's another to do it in front of the whole neighborhood at a public event.

I mean, even people like the Nazi's put on their best face when the Red Cross inspected concentration camps precisely because they didn't want anyone to know how nasty they were, even if news of their behavior was slowly leaking out of Europe.
Imagine it more as a parent slapping their child around as opposed to their neighbor. That's how they view their colonies, who are supposed to be supporting the homeworld/homeland, either through political prestige, financial gain, or off-setting whatever burdens the homeland is experiencing. As an example of this, Babylon 5 itself experiences a huge wave of migration from Earth from people who are looking for work, find none, don't have enough money to go anywhere else, and become the station's homeless/lurkers, exploited by the nebulous elements of B5. Therefore getting rid of some of the unemployed on Earth.

In later seasons, Earth Central is doing what it can to squeeze every credit out of Babylon 5 as a significant national investment, by making it's command staff pay rent, opening up a gift shop, refurbishing it as a forward command post, etc.

With Mars, B5, and Proxima III(the three main colonies that split off later in the show), these were their big colonies, had no voice in the Senate, were increasingly pressed by the Earth government for some reason or another, put under a police state, and silencing those who dissented. The Earth Alliance was obviously tightening it's grip too tight, and the nations rebelled.

A historical comparison might be to the relationship between the British Empire and it's hold on the American colonies, which due to lack of representation in government and taxation, which was in reaction to a giant war between the British Empire and another sizable Empire neighbor(France).
The big question for me is why this was considered a bad thing by JMS, but the guy himself has his own anti-authority itch to scratch like his mentor Ellison did. My only big problem with the post-B5 setting is a lack of a Vorlon loyalist holdout faction that mirrors the Drakh and the Shadows other minions.
If you mean the huge arm up, it was to the point that Earth was losing civil liberties in the process and becoming a police state to the suffering of their populace, wherein Earth just has a civil war to overturn an authoritarian regime.

If you mean aping Shadow tech, the technology gained by the Shadows is rather exploitative of others. Drakh keepers mind control people. Shadow ships destroy someone's original personality to turn someone into their CPU. Not to mention the mental screaming it does whenever it passes another ship(which can't be healthy for the crew aboard). Such things do not speak well of the culture who uses the technology.
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