clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:33 pm
I can only imagine how complicated it would be to try and teach this system to a child, or to even do something as basic as describing exactly how you like your espresso made without knowing the entire history of coffee in whatever region you are in.
For me, it is not a question of if this language could work, it is a question of if it would SURVIVE without the language evolving into something quicker and more concise.
To put a further real world example out there, in soccer there is a type of curling shot taken with the outside of the boot. In England it's often called the "banana shot", in Portugal it's the "trivela" (meaning curl or bend) and in Brazil (where the technique originated) it's the "folha seca" or dry leaf. Three very different words for the same type of shot, and only one of them giving a prosaic name, and none of them describing it exactly.
Football is a world wide game, with universal rules and almost universal knowledge available to practitioners, but yet there are thousands of examples of widely different expressions used in different areas (often by people speaking the same language) to denote a single part of the game, so much so that sometimes to get the meaning across a visual representation is needed.
Mind you, I think really Darmok is off-kilter with Star Trek laws. i.e that everyone can understand each other very easily within seconds using the UT. Rather than RL rules where language with all of its references, implications, and so on make language an intensely personal thing.
I consider it one of Star Trek's better episodes in terms of pure sci-fi because it's an intense situation brought about by pure misunderstanding--both literal and figurative. Both sides are peaceful but cultural issues as much as language are standing in the way.
Mind you, I actually have a headcanon about the UT that it's not actually as magical as the average crewmember things but works on a "great chain of relationships." There's a team of a million Hoshis back on Earth, Vulcan, and Andoria constantly updating the thing. Usually, someone speaks the language of a "new" race encountered (because the Ferengi were met by people the Federation knew if not the Federation itself) or they monitor its transmissions or its similar to something else that dummy AI can figure it out by context. It's moments like Darmok that remind people just how much effort goes into it.
Heck, screw languages having their own distinct terms, communities and fandoms of a show can develop their own language,based on a single isolated show, let alone within a full country of references.
If I say "When Luffy took Arlong's teeth for Nami", that is going to be complete gibberish to most people here, but a few of you will get that I'm talking about a specific scene in a japanese manga. (So not only a reference within a geek culture, but to a specific instance of geek culture based around a single story in another culture of something slightly niche.) If I mention the Monkey King, or Son Goku, people will likely recognize Dragonball and Journey to the West, but if I mention Tang Sanzang, no one is going to get that without context of Journey to the West added to it.
Or if I say "Paracelsus and Vincent's painting" or "Laura and the Olsen Horse" or "Leetah and Cutter recognize" that's just going to lose everyone without a google search.
But if I say "Riker and the borg" or "Q is human" or "Ripley and the Queen" or "Starscream and Megatron" everyone here is going to get it instantly.
Last edited by RobbyB1982 on Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:42 pm
Mind you, I think really Darmok is off-kilter with Star Trek laws. i.e that everyone can understand each other very easily within seconds using the UT. Rather than RL rules where language with all of its references, implications, and so on make language an intensely personal thing.
Of course, no amount of technobabble explains why the lip flaps all match up.
You can maybe explain characters being able to randomly say a word of sentence in Klingon by saying the translator is cued to a certain context for its speaker, so when they use loan words it leaves them untranslated.
RobbyB1982 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:47 am
Of course, no amount of technobabble explains why the lip flaps all match up.
It's just very good at dubbing Seriously though I regard that as one of those acceptible breaks from reality. Getting things as convincingly realistic is good but getting in the way of the story is bad, a plausible translator would slow things down somewhat. That sort of thing still grates on me a little but from the producer's point of view it's reasonable pragamatism.
RobbyB1982 wrote: ↑
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:47 am
Of course, no amount of technobabble explains why the lip flaps all match up.
Holodeck technology: project a tiny hologram on the Alien's mouth so that it looks like lip synch.
From Audience's POV it would be very unsettling without lip synch.
Likewise, from Aliens' POV it would be very unsettling without lip synch. So Picard the skilled Diplomat also uses hologram lip synch.
This only explains Classic, TNG and DS9. VOY uses bio-gel packs which are totally incompatible with holo-tech. In DIS, it's all a mushroom dream. ORV Orville has holo-tech too.
B5 speaks Interlac, the Galactic Esperanto and Doctor Who has a sonic screwdriver to make lip-synch. It's an Alien Conspiracy.
Self sealing stem bolts don't just seal themselves, you know.
Artabax wrote: ↑Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:13 pm
Doctor Who has a sonic screwdriver to make lip-synch. It's an Alien Conspiracy.
IIRC, it's the TARDIS that provides this function.
This has always been my headcanon regarding the UT. I think it gets inside your head exactly like the Tardis and changes your perception of reality. The Federation does have mind interface tech after all.
Given the... wibbly-wobblyness... of "science" in Doctor Who, I expect that the TARDIS provides all such related functionality, at least until specified otherwise. I suspect we've already thought more about the topic than anyone writing for it has, certainly not in the last several years anyway.
Seriously though I regard that as one of those acceptible breaks from reality. Getting things as convincingly realistic is good but getting in the way of the story is bad, a plausible translator would slow things down somewhat. That sort of thing still grates on me a little but from the producer's point of view it's reasonable pragamatism.
