Cost cutting space ships

[Nealithi]

well its something i would like to see more of. like it would explain why older star ships keep getting retrofitted and kept in service, they need as many ships a possible to cover a huge amount of space. Its actually part of my personal theory of a few things and explains things they did like reusing models.

After the Kitomer accords the federation disarmed a lot but kept moderate offensive systems but the ship building funds were probably slashed (the federation uses money its just people on earth don't NEED money to live, but it exists), and while some new ships where built they didn't have the funding to construct test and make that many more ships so they got creative

Pardon me isolating this. But a thought on the 'Economics of the future'. They eliminated money. But not resource needs. Look at it from the perspective of Command and Conquer clones like StarCraft. You need so many minerals to build a fighter and so much energy. This is not money but pure resources. A 20th-early 21st century look would say X amount of money and this is what resources it purchased. All they got rid of was the surface piece. So everything built in the Federation needs materials and energy. Getting more of each means reinvesting produced materials back into logistics. With the military needs of the Federation reduced they could reinvest in domestic needs and make do repurposing older ships for other roles. They simply had less need to improve these ships across the board.

Am I making any sense?

[chaos42]

yes except that they haven't eliminated money in star trek, thats just another rodenberryisam that writers didn't correct. on many times in the original series they mention credits as a unit of currency, its only tng that started the no money in the future which was only because it was done in the first season and no one fixed it later, he had a lot of control at the time. The thing is you may think trading raw materials for something works but its not as simple as that, simple barter doesn't work when you are dealing with multiple transactions over the course months to years or longer. Thats why money was invented, a universally recognized unit of trade. Its too integral to how things are done not to get rid of it. Plus if no one is payed something, whats the point of doing anything or more importantly how do the companies which we know exist as there are companies making holonovels an other things like picards family's wine, you think they just give it away to anyone who comes by? Its more likely money isn't needed to live in the 24 century but if you want more than basic living you have to work for it.

[Nealithi]

yes except that they haven't eliminated money in star trek, thats just another rodenberryisam that writers didn't correct. on many times in the original series they mention credits as a unit of currency, its only tng that started the no money in the future which was only because it was done in the first season and no one fixed it later, he had a lot of control at the time. The thing is you may think trading raw materials for something works but its not as simple as that, simple barter doesn't work when you are dealing with multiple transactions over the course months to years or longer. Thats why money was invented, a universally recognized unit of trade. Its too integral to how things are done not to get rid of it. Plus if no one is payed something, whats the point of doing anything or more importantly how do the companies which we know exist as there are companies making holonovels an other things like picards family's wine, you think they just give it away to anyone who comes by? Its more likely money isn't needed to live in the 24 century but if you want more than basic living you have to work for it.

I wasn't thinking barter so much as top down allocation as opposed to 'paying' for items. Some committee decides we need X number of ships of this class and they just don't build as many hospitals that year.

[Riedquat]

I wasn't thinking barter so much as top down allocation as opposed to 'paying' for items. Some committee decides we need X number of ships of this class and they just don't build as many hospitals that year.

That raises the question about the relative value of putting your resources towards hospitals or space ships, and how you deal with the accumulation of resources necessary for both. Money is an attempt to do that. It's a ridiculous attempt (it literally tries to compare apples with oranges), but no-one's come up with a better one. Saying "in the future with have come up with a better alternative" is rather too handwavy. I suppose for science fiction the question is whether or not we should handwave it in the same way we handwave FTL travel a lot of the time.

The point is though that you've got lots of different, often small-scale resources, that add up to a lot. What means do you have of deciding their use, and one that goes from governmental-level decisions to individuals?

[Nealithi]

I wasn't thinking barter so much as top down allocation as opposed to 'paying' for items. Some committee decides we need X number of ships of this class and they just don't build as many hospitals that year.

That raises the question about the relative value of putting your resources towards hospitals or space ships, and how you deal with the accumulation of resources necessary for both. Money is an attempt to do that. It's a ridiculous attempt (it literally tries to compare apples with oranges), but no-one's come up with a better one. Saying "in the future with have come up with a better alternative" is rather too handwavy. I suppose for science fiction the question is whether or not we should handwave it in the same way we handwave FTL travel a lot of the time.

The point is though that you've got lots of different, often small-scale resources, that add up to a lot. What means do you have of deciding their use, and one that goes from governmental-level decisions to individuals?

The problem is, I tend to agree with you. No money is up there with Star Fleet is not military. There is no religion, and no one grieves, ever.

But trying to justify what we see on a screen with the U - dis. . . Is there a topia that is not perfect or a disaster?

Justify what we see versus what is said. For a no money society to work the allocation and balance bit like a strategic video game is the closest I can come to answering that conflict. And it would help explain reusing old models of ship. The base frame of an Excelsior may be solid. They just need to plug in new tech every few decades. Similar to the B52 bomber in the real world. . . I swear I had this discussion on the STO forums. . .

[clearspira]

yes except that they haven't eliminated money in star trek, thats just another rodenberryisam that writers didn't correct. on many times in the original series they mention credits as a unit of currency, its only tng that started the no money in the future which was only because it was done in the first season and no one fixed it later, he had a lot of control at the time.

Have to correct you there: The first instance of there being no money in the future was in Star Trek The Voyage Home which was made in 1986, one year before TNG. If you don't remember the scene, it was where Kirk had to ask Gillian to by their beers.

Dr. Gillian Taylor: Don't tell me you don't use money in the 23rd Century.

Kirk: Well, we don't.

That isn't the only example either. Earlier in the film, Kirk's exact quote before deciding to pawn off his reading glasses was a dejected ''they are still using money.''

The Federation credits you mention (to my memory, I am happy to be corrected) only came up when dealing with non-Federation citizens such as when Uhura was trying to buy a tribble from Cyrano Jones. In that instance it makes perfect sense for there to be some form of currency as they couldn't possibly do business with other civilizations that DO have money. This would also be essential on Deep Space Nine as how else would anyone get hold of the latinum required to pay Quark? And like the real world, rank probably does influence how many credits you receive, which is why Uhura could afford to buy a tribble but Jake could not buy a baseball card (and would make his claim of not having any money accurate - technically its the Federation's money, not his).

My head canon is that the word ''credit'' implies just that: a credit line to some Federation bank that dishes out small amounts of money based on some stockpile of resources that they don't need thanks to the replicator but other civilizations find invaluable. Precious gems, food, water, blankets, clothes, technical expertise etc. Being friends with the Federation is like being friends with a genie. It is essentially a barter system.

[chaos42]

yes except that they haven't eliminated money in star trek, thats just another rodenberryisam that writers didn't correct. on many times in the original series they mention credits as a unit of currency, its only tng that started the no money in the future which was only because it was done in the first season and no one fixed it later, he had a lot of control at the time.

Have to correct you there: The first instance of there being no money in the future was in Star Trek The Voyage Home which was made in 1986, one year before TNG. If you don't remember the scene, it was where Kirk had to ask Gillian to by their beers.

Dr. Gillian Taylor: Don't tell me you don't use money in the 23rd Century.

Kirk: Well, we don't.

That isn't the only example either. Earlier in the film, Kirk's exact quote before deciding to pawn off his reading glasses was a dejected ''they are still using money.''

The Federation credits you mention (to my memory, I am happy to be corrected) only came up when dealing with non-Federation citizens such as when Uhura was trying to buy a tribble from Cyrano Jones. In that instance it makes perfect sense for there to be some form of currency as they couldn't possibly do business with other civilizations that DO have money. This would also be essential on Deep Space Nine as how else would anyone get hold of the latinum required to pay Quark? And like the real world, rank probably does influence how many credits you receive, which is why Uhura could afford to buy a tribble but Jake could not buy a baseball card (and would make his claim of not having any money accurate - technically its the Federation's money, not his).

My head canon is that the word ''credit'' implies just that: a credit line to some Federation bank that dishes out small amounts of money based on some stockpile of resources that they don't need thanks to the replicator but other civilizations find invaluable. Precious gems, food, water, blankets, clothes, technical expertise etc. Being friends with the Federation is like being friends with a genie. It is essentially a barter system.

sorry, forgot about that, the movies always throw me off because i didn't see the first 4 in theaters, didn't see star trek till tng came out because of mom, she is a fan of sci fi, and i don't have the sense of when they were made relative to everything else.

However that was what i was talking about, except its not just outside the federation its in the federation as well you probably have a base level of income, think of it as everyone is effectively on welfare, similar to the Republic of haven in the honor series by david weber. However if you want anything better than standard basic living you have to actually do something.

Either way i still think my theory is the one that works best given how things actually work NOW, things may change later, but till someone has an idea of how that could work, i think we have to use our 21st century way of thinking to explain this.

Personally i think they need to get a think tank together of experts on star trek and real world concepts like this and come up with a workable way these systems can work and then STICK TO IT.

For example explain that replicators don't just use energy but say energy that is stored in them from disassembled raw matter to construct the things they make. things like that.

Still the point i was making is that it seems some ships are made with cost cutting in sci fi and you would think that this would be a trope by now with how much its actually happening