Lonely Among Us (TNG)

[Admiral X]

Regressive left is descriptive, though.

[Rocketboy1313]

I am sorry. What the hell?

What do snake men, space ghosts, and ugly werewolves have to do with the "Regressive Left". Also, that is not a thing.

[Admiral X]

Yes, it is. And what it has to do with this episode is a comparison to the smug attitude on display by the human characters in this episode.

[Robovski]

Here's an example of regressive: being against free speech to the point of using violence to silence others. There is a long way to go from smug to regressive, but it probably doesn't hurt as a starting point.

[J!!]

problem: regressive is the opposite of progressive, but which direction is which completely depends on your subjective perspective on which way is forward

as such, both terms seem obvious in their meaning to the person who uses them, but will always cause problems when attempting to communicate with anyone who does not share your perspective. any actually productive discussion then gets lost under an argument about terminology

[StrangeDevice]

Etymology is a fascinating subject, particularly in how certain words have flipped in their meaning over time such as the good Samaritan. For instance, there's a city called Moron in Argentina to the west of Buenos Aires, which just goes to show how relative such things are. It doesn't even have to be "different time, different hat", it can just as easily be "different place, different hat". Case in point, I'm not from the States, so it's interesting to see how politically charged everything is way over there. Forums based around European media tend to be very quiet on current politicking hats than others. A lump after the election as was expected from American contributors, but after that everything settled down.

Getting back to "Lonely Among Us", the mentality of the Federation crew here is interesting compared to their TOS counterparts, primarily because the reaction they have here would have been considered quirky kitsch back in the 1960s. Now in the 1980s with a century behind them, it comes across as more than a little bit unbelievable, particularly for an exploration ship. Contrast their reactions here with the ingenious bit of writing for "Darmok" or even something as early as "Where Silence Has Lease".

Take this passage for example:

DATA: What is death?

PICARD: Oh, is that all? Well, Data, you're asking probably the most difficult of all questions. Some see it as a changing into an indestructible form, forever unchanging. They believe that the purpose of the entire universe is to then maintain that form in an Earth-like garden which will give delight and pleasure through all eternity. On the other hand, there are those who hold to the idea of our blinking into nothingness, with all our experiences, hopes and dreams merely a delusion.

DATA: Which do you believe, sir?

PICARD: Considering the marvellous complexity of our universe, its clockwork perfection, its balances of this against that, matter, energy, gravitation, time, dimension, I believe that our existence must be more than either of these philosophies. That what we are, goes beyond Euclidian and other practical measuring systems and that our existence is part of a reality beyond what we understand now as reality.

Now, a mind and a mentality like that seems totally at odds with what we're seeing here and in other places throughout this first year. More pointedly we have this exchange at the end, which seems to indicate that something has fundamentally altered by their encounter with Nagilum:

NAGILUM [on monitor]: It wasn't necessary. I have learned all I needed to know. Would you like me to share some of my conclusions?

PICARD: I'm not interested.

NAGILUM [on monitor]: Of course you are. You are too inquisitive not to want to know. You seem to find no tranquillity in anything. You struggle against the inevitable. You thrive on conflict. You are selfish, yet you value loyalty. You are rash, quick to judge, slow to change. It's amazing you've survived. Be that as it may, as species, we have no common ground. You are too aggressive. Too hostile. Too militant.

PICARD: During this period, you too have been evaluated. It would seem that we have at least one thing in common.

NAGILUM [on monitor]: Oh?

PICARD: Curiosity.

NAGILUM [on monitor]: The point is well taken, Captain. Perhaps that is a trait we share.

PICARD: Then perhaps we'll meet again. But next time, it will be out here, among the stars.

He doesn't dispute those very valid criticisms, both in the twenty-fourth century and now. It appears that their attitudes have changed and following "Conspiracy", you have to wonder how much influence these parasites had. After all, who's to say that they were exclusively in Starfleet? Maybe they were operating in civilian circles as well, it would seem a logical step in pacifying or dulling a population by manipulating their centres of media. As DS9's "Homefront" showed, boots on the ground only does so much. Manipulate the attitude to the advantage of the invaders and they become a much more viable target.

[Admiral X]

problem: regressive is the opposite of progressive, but which direction is which completely depends on your subjective perspective on which way is forward

Well, yeah, hence my use of it in the context that I use it.

as such, both terms seem obvious in their meaning to the person who uses them, but will always cause problems when attempting to communicate with anyone who does not share your perspective. any actually productive discussion then gets lost under an argument about terminology

The political label "progressive" has been used and abused by the regressive left in an effort to make themselves look more appealing to others as well as to themselves. More recently it's been used as a cudgel to beat others about the head with. For an example of a real progressive, the person in my avatar does quite nicely. What it comes down to is judging based on actions. The reason I call the regressive left "regressive" is because that is how they act. "Left" just describes which side of the political spectrum they come from in order to differentiate them from the other regressives (i.e. Pat Robertson and the like).

Etymology is a fascinating subject, particularly in how certain words have flipped in their meaning over time such as the good Samaritan. For instance, there's a city called Moron in Argentina to the west of Buenos Aires, which just goes to show how relative such things are. It doesn't even have to be "different time, different hat", it can just as easily be "different place, different hat". Case in point, I'm not from the States, so it's interesting to see how politically charged everything is way over there. Forums based around European media tend to be very quiet on current politicking hats than others. A lump after the election as was expected from American contributors, but after that everything settled down.

Well, to be fair, you have your own version of it over there in Europe. Perhaps even a bit scarier than here in some ways looking at some of the elections going on. Well, I don't know how much I can say that given the God Emperor that's occupying the office of the President at this point in time, but from my perspective it really was a no win scenario.

Getting back to "Lonely Among Us", the mentality of the Federation crew here is interesting compared to their TOS counterparts, primarily because the reaction they have here would have been considered quirky kitsch back in the 1960s. Now in the 1980s with a century behind them, it comes across as more than a little bit unbelievable, particularly for an exploration ship. Contrast their reactions here with the ingenious bit of writing for "Darmok" or even something as early as "Where Silence Has Lease".

That's kind of the first couple of seasons in a nutshell, though. I hate to say it, but it was probably for the best that GR got kicked upstairs, so to speak.

He doesn't dispute those very valid criticisms, both in the twenty-fourth century and now. It appears that their attitudes have changed and following "Conspiracy", you have to wonder how much influence these parasites had. After all, who's to say that they were exclusively in Starfleet? Maybe they were operating in civilian circles as well, it would seem a logical step in pacifying or dulling a population by manipulating their centres of media. As DS9's "Homefront" showed, boots on the ground only does so much. Manipulate the attitude to the advantage of the invaders and they become a much more viable target.

I don't think what you describe could really be attributed to the parasites. Plus, with the death of the queen, all the drones inhabiting other people died anyway. Actually, if anything, I would have thought the episode with the parasites might have made everyone as paranoid as they were later in in DS9 when it came to the idea of changelings hiding amongst them.

[StrangeDevice]

Well, to be fair, you have your own version of it over there in Europe. Perhaps even a bit scarier than here in some ways looking at some of the elections going on. Well, I don't know how much I can say that given the God Emperor that's occupying the office of the President at this point in time, but from my perspective it really was a no win scenario.

You'd be surprised how much of it gets played up from time to time. Actually, you probably wouldn't... As the old saying goes -- "There's no news like bad news."

That's kind of the first couple of seasons in a nutshell, though. I hate to say it, but it was probably for the best that GR got kicked upstairs, so to speak.

Gene occupies the same space as chaps like George Lucas and Gerry Anderson. They were masterful for the development of core concepts, but organising the minutae and the little bits and pieces that made it work had to fall on other people like D.C. Fontana and the like who made it all slot together. They made these unique worlds breathe by populating them full of relatable and realistic people. It's very rare that you can find someone who can do both the big and little picture at the same time.

I don't think what you describe could really be attributed to the parasites. Plus, with the death of the queen, all the drones inhabiting other people died anyway. Actually, if anything, I would have thought the episode with the parasites might have made everyone as paranoid as they were later in in DS9 when it came to the idea of changelings hiding amongst them.

Yeah, it's a bit desperate, I will admit. Even as a long-term plan, it may have taken centuries for it to have the desired effect. The only alternative there of course is to ignore it and that seems a bit, well, cheap. There's very little fun in that.

[Beastro]

People like to think kids are dumb. They're ignorant, but perceptive. Watching Early TNG on weekends when there was nothing else on gave me an early dose in Left wing arrogance and self-righteousness. I see now looking back that when that sort of thing bugs me from the left, it has it's heart in episodes like this.

Early TNG isn't really an accurate picture of the left, though; it's more like a straw-man version of the left, sort of like what Rush Limbaugh would see the left as (with a healthy dose of straw-libertarianism, too, in the "I don't care if you're dying, my principle tells me not to intervene!!" interpretation of the Prime Directive). It's more Gene Roddenberry getting a bit senile than anything else.

Oh I'm not saying it is as a whole, more of a Gene's antics and how a "movement", even a fictional franchise can degenerate into "dear Doctor" BS and what it comes back to in my life experience when I run into that with regard to the Left.

For the Right, and other things, I have my own things they feel like. Like when I see hypocritical crap from fellow Christians, especially from pastors and such, it goes back to how my father was when I was a kid and knowing what a damn sociopath was hiding behind the veneer of rhetoric.

To me, despite being about 6 at the time I'd have first seen this episode, Riker's smug lecture about meat (and Picard's about money in Neutral Zone, again with the Crystalline Entity, which was nothing but a wild animal wiping out entire planets, it's uniqueness matters for squat to me compared to what it did. To place it's life's value over that of human beings and others considered equal in life value for more than a hypothetical moment of thought, is reprehensible) rubbed me very wrong even when I wasn't able to fathom the depth of the underlying issues those scenes were dealing with given my age at the time. To me, it was the sheer attitude that got to me, and it's gone on to form a basis for when I hear people talk in such a such way about things. An example lately is when those on the Left go on about those that disagree with them being "On the wrong side of history", there is no room to debate with such sentiment and it outright ignores the other sides reasons for taking a different stance.

Riker is an asshole because he doesn't even ask why they think and feel that way about live meat. Maybe to the Anticans replicators divorce food from the realities of life in a major way, given that food is so integral to a orgasms reality, especially a carnivore like them. To lose that touch of life feeding off of life and others given themselves, even unwillingly, so that you can live, is to cheapen life itself. I feel much the same way about the degree AI might play in war. To the end that it might wind up being machines fighting machines and the nature and reality of war will be debased by that allowing people to be more willing to commit war, Lee's comment that it is good that war is such hell lest we'd grow too fond of it, and all.

That mentality, combined with Star Treks supposed ideals of open inquiry and freethinking, reeks, and I'm happy Gene's hubris was around for me at the time to give me an early lesson in that sort of thing.

I'll ignore the rest of this thread. I knew it was going to spark something beyond what I intend, that is to convey a bit of life and how even Season 1 TNG left an impression for good upon me. I could have buffered my OP more, but I hate walking on egg shells around political topics now, it's too much of a wear on me now.

[TGLS]

You know, the moment I heard the beginning of the "joke", I knew how I would have done it.

Riker: Mr. Ambassador can you explain what [holds up prop] this is?
Ambassador: It's a [tech].
Riker: Yes, a [lethal tech]. Why do need this for a diplomatic mission?
Ambassador: Eating.
Riker: (incredulous) Eating?
Ambassador: Commander, I read about your culture. You have massive "ranches" where you raise "cows" for food!
Riker: (understanding) Ambassador, the cows have already been butchered well before the food arrives on our kitchens.
Ambassador: (dawning realization) You, you eat food you haven't killed yourself? That is disgusting!

(later)
Troi: You know the [other aliens] consider eating something that came from another animal morally reprehensible.
Riker: I know. How can we bring peace to two people who can't even have dinner without throwing insults at each other?

And then the replicator is the solution as it placates both sides. Side A gets a no animals harmed meal, and B gets to "kill" the meat. Either that or they join together in their hatred of the Feds suggestion.