KOTOR 2: The Sith Lords vs. The Last Jedi

[Winter]

Okay, I have no idea what posting this will do but I'm interested to know what everyone thinks about comparing these two Star Wars stories. Yesterday I watch a couple of videos that compared KOTOR 2 and The Last Jedi and how both are deconstructions of Star Wars, it's lore and the Force and videos were more in favor of Sith Lords over Last and from what I've seen that's an opinion that seems to be shared by most fans at this time.

As Chuck pointed out in his review of Dragon Age 2, there was a notable drop in popularity with the fans when it came to DA2 vs. Dragon Age: Origins by using the scores from Metacritic for the respective games. So after seeing the reviews of Sith Lords I decided to check out the reception of the game on Metacritic as well to see how it held up to Last. The difference was astounding with a score of 85 from the critics and a 84 from the fans, (like Chuck I'm just ignoring the decimal point and treating it like it also goes up to 100).

Meanwhile, as you all may know at this point, on both Metacritic and Rotten Tomato while the critics gave Last a score of 85 and 91 on both sites respectfully while the audience reception was a lot more negative, with a 45 on MC and a 46 on RT. Yet both Sith Lords and Last are deconstructions of Star Wars and both paint the Jedi and the Force in a less then flattering light. So why is it that Sith Lords is generally well liked by both critics and fans while Last has a very clear split between the two?

Please note I am not trying to start a argument about which one I is better I just want to know what everyone's opinion are on this subject, what is your take on the two? Is Sith Lords' popularity just as case of being ahead of it's time and most of the missing content of the game restored or is there just something about this game that got what Star Wars was in a way Last didn't.

From what little I've seen of Sith Lords, I do own it but I have yet to play it as I just haven't had the time to and I'm $h!te with a keyboard, it felt more like Star Wars as while it deconstructed the core of the series, Good vs. Evil, Sith Lords still stuck true to the series other core ideas. That gaining great power takes work and that one shouldn't take the quick and easy way out of a problem and that while the Force itself is questioned and deconstructed the game doesn't outright break it's lore or established characters to make it work.

Also, and this is very much just my personal opinion, I found Last to be rather condescending to the viewer with several scenes in the movie where the characters are almost looking straight into the camera and has them almost spell out it's themes. Rose, Yoda and Kylo Ren all have one of these moments in the movie where the camera is right next to them as they say things like, War Profiteering is bad, Failure is the Best Teacher there is and Let the Past Die. Take this on contrast with how Kreia talks about the Force and why she hates it. Like Last she is talking to the player, literally since your the one asking about the Force, and she does pretty much spell out her opinion on it but unlike the bits in Last this felt more real and while she is talking to the player character I felt that she is talking more to herself then anything else. For me this made Kreia feel more real and by extension made a more three dimensional character where as Rose, Yoda and Ren in their scenes felt, for me, more like Rian Johnson telling the viewer what they should be thinking instead of it being something that would fit the characters.

But that's just my opinion, what do you all think?

[Nealithi]

I am not very happy with deconstructions of things I like as a whole. But my thoughts on Kotor2 is that you had the option of rejecting Kreia's beliefs. You could be the lightside ronin that still believes in the jedi way if not the jedi themselves.
Last seemed to take all the previous characters and turn them upside down. Leia would never have okayed that mission with the bombers in the first place. She does not keep secrets from her people, she trusts them or they are gone. The great and glorious admiral that arrives out of no where to put the previous heroes down like they are so much trash felt like an author avatar to feel empowered. Not to move the story forward in a meaningful way.
Last was full of plot holes to the point it was a lace doily.
Kotor2 at least at first was pretty solid. A mystery and escape only to be in lockdown yet again and having to track another player. All while this old robed jedi whispers odd lessons to you. There is no right answer. Every action means terrible consequences. Or so she says. It is only near the end when it feels like it was all rushed to put an ending on it even though you feel only half way through the story. It was better structured and you had a choice on whether to accept the lessons or not.

[CharlesPhipps]

I find KOTOR 2 to be dramatically overrated because I never felt like I got the opportunity to say, "Yes, the Force is good and the Jedi are positive and you're just refusing to accept that maybe you're a bad person because you chose to be."

Because the thing is....Kreia's philosophy is not just bad philosophy, she's kind of a cruddy Sith as well.

They, of ALL PEOPLE, take personal responsibility for their evil.

And with COMPLETE AWARENESS of my own hypocrisy, I wish they had made the First Order less of a cariacture and got more into the moral ambiguities of war

[Wargriffin]

The Last Jedi's problem is Luke's whole the Jedi Suck mentality comes from His self loathing

or as He put it... He's been hiding out waiting to die cause he's just that ashamed of himself


Last Jedi is not trying to be a well thought out deconstruction... Well thought out is its biggest problem.


The Sith Lords works better as a deconstruction... but suffers from the Writer having a bad case of "Of course you're gonna agree with me!"

So yeah he puts in chances to rebuke or refuse... IT doesn't matter cause the plot rail roads you in.

IE No better example is Kavar, Vrook and Zazi all come to some revelation that perhaps they should discuss what you have learned... only to 360 back to having to cut you off from the force cause Kriea HAS to show up and make a big deal of how much smarter she is then everybody, and be justified in killing the Jedi

[Winter]

The Sith Lords works better as a deconstruction... but suffers from the Writer having a bad case of "Of course you're gonna agree with me!"

I personally didn't get that as it felt, to me, and again I have yet to play the whole thing so there maybe something lost in translation, the bits where the nature of the Force is being debated but you're still allowed to draw your own conclusions. Take everything Kreia says, you have the option of rejecting everything she says and, from what I can gather, you are not rewarded or punished for sticking to your views.

Sure Kreia will criticize you for doing so but, for me, she kinda reminds me of Wynne from Dragon Age: Origins if she was a villain, just because she doesn't fully support you doesn't make her write or wrong it's just how she sees things.

[Worffan101]

TLJ suffers from deep structural and tonal problems that affect it to its very core.

KOTOR 2 has a few issues even with the Restored Content Mod...but I could still play the Exile as full lightside. It was in the middle of the decon phase of the decon-recon cycle, but there was still the acknowledgement that being good is good and possible and has good results, even if it's hard, and a lot of the dark stuff is calling the player out for playing the RPG like a murderhobo sim.

KOTOR 2's better. Even if Kreia is annoying as hell.

[Madner Kami]

IE No better example is Kavar, Vrook and Zazi all come to some revelation that perhaps they should discuss what you have learned... only to 360 back to having to cut you off from the force cause Kriea HAS to show up and make a big deal of how much smarter she is then everybody, and be justified in killing the Jedi

It's always hard to ascertain what is intentional and what is a result of rushed production. KoTOR 2 always has the excuse of the later, while still presenting you with sensible moral dilemmas, offering different views to established thought and putting things on it's head. In short, it's a deconstruction that looks for weakspots in the construction and either brings it down or strengthens the overall construction, depending on your point of view and reception.

TLJ doesn't look for weakspots in the construction. It just rattles as hard as it can on every nook and cranny and thus manages to bring down even the strongest parts of the construction in a huge and messy crash. It's deconstruction without any sort of regard for the construction in the first place.

Think about the game Jenga. KoTOR 2 is the player who thoughtfully extracts a brick and skillfully places it on top of the tower, subtracting and adding at the same time, sometimes resulting in the tower toppling. TLJ is the toddler who just prods the tower and laughs hysterically, while it falls over.

[Winter]

Another thing about Sith Lords vs. Last is that, for me, it handles Darkness in the Second Chapter a lot better. Last went way to far with it's more lighthearted and comedic moments, often entering straight into self parody and because of the borderline talking straight to the viewer moments I mentioned before, it took me completely out of the movie more then once. With Sith Lords it had it's more uplifting and comedic moments but that, again for me at least, felt more natural in the heat of the moment, like this is something the characters would say to help lighten the mood.

Last didn't feel like it took the viewers seriously and was to obvious with it's jokes while Sith Lords took the players Very serious and new they would get most of the jokes before going back to the more serious stuff. And for the record, I'm perfectly fine with a story being super serious one moment only for it to go straight into straight up parody the next. Teen Titans, Steven Universe and Adventure Time are all series that do just that and I love two of those and really enjoy the third. But this is Star Wars, it's never been a straight up comedy/parody of itself and yet between Last and the upcoming Star Wars Resistance, at least from what we've seen in the trailer, the series now thinks it has to be TT, SU and AT to be hip and cool.

It's like it's trying to be Marvel but forgets that Marvel and is embraced about being Star Wars at all.

[MrL1992]

KOTOR 2 is a game where I love where it was going... If only they had been allowed to properly finish it!
TLJ is pretty high ranking for me in regards to the movies.it was able to shake up the usual story nd show a human side to the character's that few others have done.

Both. at least in KOTOR 2's 'good' ending, demonstrate the Jedi as flawed but still worth salvaging. Again, I THINK that's what JOTOR 2 communicates, again, an incomplete game. The I plications of TLJ are rather less dark, the Jedi's faults mainly being their hubris and ridged values the lead to them being taken down by essentially one guy. KOTOR 2's Jedi were more the victims of corruption and how war affected them.

Keep in mind that KOTOR wrote the Jedi in its own way and didn't necessarily stick by Lucas' writing in the prequels.

[Fixer]

When it comes to a good deconstruction of an genre or franchise. It comes with presenting ideas that challenge concepts you always had about the universe which allow you an alternate way of viewing what you had seen before.

When it comes to KOTOR 2, a few things stick clearly in my memory. The first was that excellent meta reveal on the Exile and why she had been able to power up by killing so many and why she acted as a magnet that brought other force using characters around her.

The next was some great reflections on moral absolutism. A good or generous act such as giving credits to a beggar makes them a target for thugs. Your good act has actually created more suffering in the world.

Or taking challenges from other people. If you are the individual that solves everyone else's problems you also rob from them the chance of growing and overcoming them yourself.

Was the Exile right to join Revan in the fight against the Mandalorians? They prevented the Mandalorian wars but then this ultimately resulted in the Jedi Civil War. Or could the Jedi have simply resolved this by acting rather than constantly deliberating until someone else acted for them?

Or the force itself. Does it rob people of free will, playing a game of balance that only provokes continual conflict from the two extremes?

These questions or insights are very open, with no real right answer and provoke thought as a result.