Brexit Rambles

[Wild_Kraken]

BREAKING: Brexit negotiations still going poorly. I thought the EU would be partially appeased by the Chequers plan, but it looks like they've taken a hard line and are intent on squeezing the UK for all it's worth.

[LittleRaven]

I thought the EU would be partially appeased by the Chequers plan, but it looks like they've taken a hard line and are intent on squeezing the UK for all it's worth.

Of course. The EU must break Britain. It's nothing personal, it's just business. Anyone would do the same thing in their place.

These are rocky times for the EU. Eastern Europe is fast returning to its more authoritarian roots. The Swedish Democrats have somehow managed to become the third largest party in the country. Italy's new government is full of populist fury. And the migrant crisis shows no sign of slowing down any time soon. Britain has already voted to walk. Given the people that are rapidly being elected across the continent, it's only a matter of time until some other country decides to follow Britain's example. Unless Britain sets the right kind of example.

The EU must project power and stability. And they cannot do that if Britain is allowed to simply walk away. Britain must be made to lament the day that they dared question the wisdom of the EU. They must be made to grovel before Brussels and then ultimately accept humiliating surrender. Anything less, and the whole project is put in jeopardy.

[Riedquat]

I thought the EU would be partially appeased by the Chequers plan, but it looks like they've taken a hard line and are intent on squeezing the UK for all it's worth.

Of course. The EU must break Britain. It's nothing personal, it's just business. Anyone would do the same thing in their place.

These are rocky times for the EU. Eastern Europe is fast returning to its more authoritarian roots. The Swedish Democrats have somehow managed to become the third largest party in the country. Italy's new government is full of populist fury. And the migrant crisis shows no sign of slowing down any time soon. Britain has already voted to walk. Given the people that are rapidly being elected across the continent, it's only a matter of time until some other country decides to follow Britain's example. Unless Britain sets the right kind of example.

The EU must project power and stability. And they cannot do that if Britain is allowed to simply walk away. Britain must be made to lament the day that they dared question the wisdom of the EU. They must be made to grovel before Brussels and then ultimately accept humiliating surrender. Anything less, and the whole project is put in jeopardy.

For the EU to survive it needs reasons for countries to want to stay, not fear to leave. It's that sort of perception of it that played heavily towards Britain choosing to leave. The EU needs to project stability, yes. And you only get stability when people are generally satisfied, not when they fear you. Anyone who expects others to grovel deserves a kick in the teeth.

[LittleRaven]

For the EU to survive it needs reasons for countries to want to stay, not fear to leave.

Machiavelli would disagree. Being loved is great, of course. But being feared is safer.

[Antiboyscout]

For the EU to survive it needs reasons for countries to want to stay, not fear to leave.

Machiavelli would disagree. Being loved is great, of course. But being feared is safer.

Until the fear you generate causes disparate forces to form a coalition to take you down.
BTW this is basically all of German history since the 30 Years War.

[LittleRaven]

Until the fear you generate causes disparate forces to form a coalition to take you down.

You're talking about external threats, Machiavelli and I are discussing internal ones.

[Antiboyscout]

Until the fear you generate causes disparate forces to form a coalition to take you down.

You're talking about external threats, Machiavelli and I are discussing internal ones.

A conspiracy among powerful men to dethrone a king or member states banning together to break a German dominated union.
It doesn't matter what powers are banning together, only that they are, in opposition to you.

[LittleRaven]

A conspiracy among powerful men to dethrone a king or member states banning together to break a German dominated union.

Those both sound like internal threats to me.

Machiavelli was giving advice on how to keep your own house in order, since historically that's the biggest threat to any prince. He favored the approach taken by Saddam or Gaddaffi - make everyone afraid of you. Sure, get their love if you can, but make sure they never lose the fear, because once they do, the conspiracies start.

Of course, you don't want to pull a Napoleon either. If all of your neighbors get more afraid of you than each other, well, then you can have a real problem on your hands as well. But I don't think the EU has to worry about THAT kind of problem any time soon.

[Riedquat]

Until the fear you generate causes disparate forces to form a coalition to take you down.

You're talking about external threats, Machiavelli and I are discussing internal ones.

Happens internally too. It's possible for a while, keep pushing ever harder to keep the lid on and it'll eventually explode in your face. Obnoxious behaviour can see you through a crisis but it has reprecussions and is never a long term solution. The best way to avoid a knife in the back is for people to not want to put one there. And if enough people want to stick a knife in your back you probably deserve it.

[Riedquat]

BREAKING: Brexit negotiations still going poorly. I thought the EU would be partially appeased by the Chequers plan, but it looks like they've taken a hard line and are intent on squeezing the UK for all it's worth.

That and the Chequers plan was terrible.

Well yes. I'm really rather sick of there being no apparent interest in negotation really (and of those people defending that position).