KOTOR 2: The Sith Lords vs. The Last Jedi

[Yukaphile]

As someone is not a huge fan of the Jedi (I see them as too stuffy, too uptight, and way too extreme for my tastes), I loved KOTOR 2. KOTOR 2 at least had epic dialogue. Even if you can't agree with Kreia, come on, you gotta respect the depth of her knowledge. And some things she says rings absolutely true. A culture's teachings and the nature of its people DO achieve definition in conflict. We find ourselves or we find ourselves lacking. It's about a journey of self-exploration and discovering who you really are. It's objective fact when stacked against the larger mythos. I never got the supposed hate-boner people had for KOTOR 2. Guess they're too simple-minded to appreciate something with nuance and thematic resonance, something outside the typical dreck of absolutism that black vs. white is in Star Wars.

[Madner Kami]

Guess they're too simple-minded to appreciate something with nuance and thematic resonance, something outside the typical dreck of absolutism that black vs. white is in Star Wars.

Or maybe they are complex-minded and just have a different point of view. You yourself show simple-mindedness when you fail to see the nuance in their differing opinion and I find it kind of funny that, you of all people, have an issue with people who prefer to see things through a lense of moral absolutism.

[Karha of Honor]

As someone is not a huge fan of the Jedi (I see them as too stuffy, too uptight, and way too extreme for my tastes), I loved KOTOR 2. KOTOR 2 at least had epic dialogue. Even if you can't agree with Kreia, come on, you gotta respect the depth of her knowledge. And some things she says rings absolutely true. A culture's teachings and the nature of its people DO achieve definition in conflict. We find ourselves or we find ourselves lacking. It's about a journey of self-exploration and discovering who you really are. It's objective fact when stacked against the larger mythos. I never got the supposed hate-boner people had for KOTOR 2. Guess they're too simple-minded to appreciate something with nuance and thematic resonance, something outside the typical dreck of absolutism that black vs. white is in Star Wars.

It could be the case for many of them that they like that just not in SW.

[Nealithi]

As someone is not a huge fan of the Jedi (I see them as too stuffy, too uptight, and way too extreme for my tastes), I loved KOTOR 2. KOTOR 2 at least had epic dialogue. Even if you can't agree with Kreia, come on, you gotta respect the depth of her knowledge. And some things she says rings absolutely true. A culture's teachings and the nature of its people DO achieve definition in conflict. We find ourselves or we find ourselves lacking. It's about a journey of self-exploration and discovering who you really are. It's objective fact when stacked against the larger mythos. I never got the supposed hate-boner people had for KOTOR 2. Guess they're too simple-minded to appreciate something with nuance and thematic resonance, something outside the typical dreck of absolutism that black vs. white is in Star Wars.

I am not so sure on that. I played Kotor 2 several times. Good, bad, in between. I made sith of my companions, I made Jedi of them. I sometimes tried to get them killed off. Kreia's philosophy is best summed up with the beggar. Do not give him aid it will draw ire upon him. Do not chase him away he will inflict ire. Just walk away ignoring him and let him live or die alone. Basically be a New Yorker that steps over a man collapsed on the side walk, than lift a finger to help. That did not strike me as a commendable lesson and about when I stopped listening to her 'advice'.

[CharlesPhipps]

Kreia's philosophy is that a man should stand alone with no Force or others to help him.

Except she uses the Force all the time.

[Wargriffin]

Kreia's philosophy is that a man should stand alone with no Force or others to help him.

Except she uses the Force all the time.

Cause Kreia is a Massive Hypocrite, Its just everybody who wants to jump on the "Jedi Suck" bandwagon ignores that... Hell They ignore the biggest glaring aspect of Kotor 2


The reason I say Kotor 2 is you never can refute Kreia... is cause the entire game is Her Revenge ploy

She kills the 'Old' Jedi order for having the audacity to kick her out' THERE IS YOUR LESSON KIDS, and Then Wipes her Sith school out for betraying her

and Nothing you do will change that outcome... Basically Kreia more or less wins the only thing that differs is how you and her view each other respectably

As someone is not a huge fan of the Jedi (I see them as too stuffy, too uptight, and way too extreme for my tastes), I loved KOTOR 2. KOTOR 2 at least had epic dialogue. Even if you can't agree with Kreia, come on, you gotta respect the depth of her knowledge. And some things she says rings absolutely true. A culture's teachings and the nature of its people DO achieve definition in conflict. We find ourselves or we find ourselves lacking. It's about a journey of self-exploration and discovering who you really are. It's objective fact when stacked against the larger mythos. I never got the supposed hate-boner people had for KOTOR 2. Guess they're too simple-minded to appreciate something with nuance and thematic resonance, something outside the typical dreck of absolutism that black vs. white is in Star Wars.

I am not so sure on that. I played Kotor 2 several times. Good, bad, in between. I made sith of my companions, I made Jedi of them. I sometimes tried to get them killed off. Kreia's philosophy is best summed up with the beggar. Do not give him aid it will draw ire upon him. Do not chase him away he will inflict ire. Just walk away ignoring him and let him live or die alone. Basically be a New Yorker that steps over a man collapsed on the side walk, than lift a finger to help. That did not strike me as a commendable lesson and about when I stopped listening to her 'advice'.

Ahh but Kreia is more then willing to help if Helping makes the person her Stooge... See Hanharr and Atton.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

It's been a while since I played the game, but I don't think Kreia being a hypocrite is necessarily a flaw. She raises some points about the Force and the Jedi that were long overdue in the Star Wars universe, and well worth considering. That doesn't mean that her reasoning isn't flawed, and she's still the villain in the end.

The much more glaring issue is its lack of a strong resolution.

With The Last Jedi, there are a lot of issues, from tone to plot holes to the execution of its theme. I think the basic ideas are worth exploring, but they came at an awkward spot in the trilogy (smack dab in the middle) and Rian Johnson didn't fulfill his obligation to advance the trilogy logically from TFA and building toward a conclusion. Johnson's full commitment to subversion came at the expense of consistent characterization, good plotting, and advancing the story in a meaningful way.

I don't think Rian Johnson is at all dumb, but KotOR 2 had better and smarter thematic execution, and it benefited by not having the same responsibilities and expectations that Rian Johnson had. If Rian Johnson had explored these ideas in a non-saga movie, I highly doubt that many fans would have a problem with it.

[Winter]

I don't think Rian Johnson is at all dumb, but KotOR 2 had better and smarter thematic execution, and it benefited by not having the same responsibilities and expectations that Rian Johnson had. If Rian Johnson had explored these ideas in a non-saga movie, I highly doubt that many fans would have a problem with it.

While I have my issues with Johnson I think the real issue with Last is that it was, by all accounts, put together on Very short notice and TBH most stories that are rushed through are usually not as good as Stories that were given time really be fleshed out. In a lot of ways Last is very much the Dragon Age 2/Mass Effect 3 of Star Wars. It does have good ideas and subverting expectations isn't a bad thing but the issue with all three of these stories is that for many, myself included, is that the flaws outweigh the strengths of the work.

[Wargriffin]

Last Jedi Struggles the most cause Half the movie is devoted to a plot Johnson really seem to not care about

The Rebel plot which bounces all over the place is constantly inconsistent and at times nonsensical So were on a time table yet Finn and Rose have time to get in a shuttle and go to another planet.

Holden is an entire video essay unto herself... then having the audacity to have Leia stick up for her in the end is mind boggling.


Rebel plot would have been so much tighter if they had just gone with a Trapped with a Traitor plot, Cause That would have atleast made Holden's inability to tell ANYBODY what her plan is make sense




____

Villain's tend to be hypocritical, so No Kreia isn't honestly weird in that aspect. Its just you have so many people who refuse to see her as one.

The criticism of the Jedi is valid but tends to be ignore all evidence to the contrary or is so dripping in the modern disdain of the concept of self sacrifice / enforced control its ridiculous

that and Kotor's version of the Old Jedi is just the PT Jedi 1000 years to early where they can't decide what cause the sudden shift.

Its people refuse to acknowledged that the dark side is malevolent in nature mostly cause They think adding moral ambiguity will "Deepen" the setting

Control is a very fundamental part of being a force user, You might not like the idea of the heavy restrictions... but its either that or have a psychotic supervillain running around

Its like the Statement" You should learn both aspects of the force!"

Why would a GOOD person every learn force lightning? seriously Why would you learn a ability where you slowly cook someone to death? Tell me when would that EVER come up?

[Karha of Honor]

Kreia's philosophy is that a man should stand alone with no Force or others to help him.

Except she uses the Force all the time.

Cause Kreia is a Massive Hypocrite, Its just everybody who wants to jump on the "Jedi Suck" bandwagon ignores that... Hell They ignore the biggest glaring aspect of Kotor 2


The reason I say Kotor 2 is you never can refute Kreia... is cause the entire game is Her Revenge ploy

She kills the 'Old' Jedi order for having the audacity to kick her out' THERE IS YOUR LESSON KIDS, and Then Wipes her Sith school out for betraying her

and Nothing you do will change that outcome... Basically Kreia more or less wins the only thing that differs is how you and her view each other respectably

Doesn't she say that killing the Force might kill her and every living being?