Lonely Among Us (TNG)

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Durandal_1707
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

Post by Durandal_1707 »

Beastro wrote:To me, despite being about 6 at the time I'd have first seen this episode, Riker's smug lecture about meat (and Picard's about money in Neutral Zone, again with the Crystalline Entity, which was nothing but a wild animal wiping out entire planets, it's uniqueness matters for squat to me compared to what it did. To place it's life's value over that of human beings and others considered equal in life value for more than a hypothetical moment of thought, is reprehensible) rubbed me very wrong even when I wasn't able to fathom the depth of the underlying issues those scenes were dealing with given my age at the time.
Trust me, most of that Season 1 TNG crap irritates people on either side of the political spectrum. It's rather non-partisan that way.
To me, it was the sheer attitude that got to me, and it's gone on to form a basis for when I hear people talk in such a such way about things. An example lately is when those on the Left go on about those that disagree with them being "On the wrong side of history", there is no room to debate with such sentiment and it outright ignores the other sides reasons for taking a different stance.
Being cautious to be on the right side of history is a legitimate concern. The people who supported slavery, colonialism, fascism, Stalinism, apartheid, etc. all had reasons for what they did, but history tends not to be very sympathetic.
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

Post by MissKittyFantastico »

TGLS wrote:[lethal tech]
My brain just, I swear without any conscious effort, read that as 'holodeck'.
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

Post by Dindu »

Being cautious to be on the right side of history is a legitimate concern.
I'm more concerned with saying what I believe to be right than I am with how anyone else will judge me.

I find the debate about TNG politics tremendously interesting, and you're right that TNG1/2's innate moralising tends to piss off just about everyone. That's a big part of why I do find it interesting.

I think a lot of it is because they don't have the courage to make any definitive stance.

In LAU you have Riker stating that most people in the Feds do not eat 'real' meat, but they do eat replicated meat because it is tasty and nutritious. There's no direct statement about the value of animal life, nor does he attempt to tell the Anticans that they should not do so. His expression is certainly one of disdain, but there's no direct statement of values.
Yet, only a few episodes later Riker is on a Klingon ship eating live Gagh, not just 'real' meat, but an animal that is alive when you eat it. So the audience ends up feeling they've been patronised but a show which itself doesn't have a position to take. It's beige politics shouted loudly. On the one hand they say 'don't eat meat because that's icky' on the other they say 'eating meat is manly and cool'.

In broad terms ST is a wierd kind of hybrid marxist/socialist collective (itself interesting becaue the main reason for marxism being inhuman in the real world is obviated by the surfeit of goods) but refuses to make that position relevant. They'll judge the Ferenghi for being concerned with wealth whilst at the same time proselytising that they don't judge. They'll happily, joyously, withold aid from worlds that are starving, even though it would cost them nothing because the concept of cost is itself meaningless, and they do that because the entire Federation is deist, but they're too frightened to show any of them actually having a religious position. Every depiction of religion i can recall is either alien cultures of the week shown to be too dumb to live, or the half-assed at best religion of the Bajorans, which is, itself, not even a religion because it is DEMONSTRABLY TRUE.

It's like being at a dinner party with someone who will loudly declare their position is the only morally good position, but then refuses to tell you what their position actually is.

Thinking about it, I'm going to have to go back now and rewrite up the LAU scene to have Yar counter Riker by saying she DOES eat meat, and has no issue with eating meat, because if you at least have people discussing a subject you're showing that the world is complicated and virtually every position you can take on anything is only ever one side. Not to mention Yar's background ought to make her painfully aware that when the shit is down you work out what is actually important, and what is just entitled whinging about irrelevant minutiae.
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

Post by SlackerinDeNile »

Wow this thread has gone on, really glad to read a lot of the posts here, there is quite a lot I don't like about TNG but you guys have really made me think about it with your intelligent criticisms and analysis.

Regarding what Dindu was discussing before me, the way 24th century Trek handled both the issues of meat-eating and Klingon race and culture kind of go hand in hand, I feel like different writers had completely different takes on it. For example, you've got this episode, with its quasi-vegan smugness that Chuck and everybody else here have bashed to bits, other episodes that raise similar, smug points about how the human race only wishes to better itself all the time and spread peace and understanding, then you've got the Klingon worship episodes where not only are the Klingons depicted as incredibly savage stereotypes but the whole galaxy LOVES them for it! This was one of my major problems with DS9, I just did not get why some of the writers and many of the characters saw the primitive, savage and often idiotic Klingons as some kind of pinnacle of life and sentience...
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

Post by Durandal_1707 »

Dindu wrote:Every depiction of religion i can recall is either alien cultures of the week shown to be too dumb to live, or the half-assed at best religion of the Bajorans, which is, itself, not even a religion because it is DEMONSTRABLY TRUE.
I thought the Bajoran religion was pretty cool, up until they turned it into a black-and-white angels-and-demons cliché. The earlier depiction was way more interesting, with the Prophets being one of the few truly alien entities in Trek (as opposed to all the humans wearing various hats). It was ambiguous, and it was a religion, because while it was certainly demonstrably true that the Prophets existed, whether they were gods, or whether they even knew they were being worshipped as gods, or whether they even knew what being worshipped as gods meant was up for question, as were the limits of their abilities. You have no idea how mad "The Reckoning" made me for screwing all this up.
SlackerinDeNile wrote:Regarding what Dindu was discussing before me, the way 24th century Trek handled both the issues of meat-eating and Klingon race and culture kind of go hand in hand, I feel like different writers had completely different takes on it. For example, you've got this episode, with its quasi-vegan smugness that Chuck and everybody else here have bashed to bits, other episodes that raise similar, smug points about how the human race only wishes to better itself all the time and spread peace and understanding, then you've got the Klingon worship episodes where not only are the Klingons depicted as incredibly savage stereotypes but the whole galaxy LOVES them for it! This was one of my major problems with DS9, I just did not get why some of the writers and many of the characters saw the primitive, savage and often idiotic Klingons as some kind of pinnacle of life and sentience...
I don't think that various characters being fascinated by Klingon culture is all that weird, though, although Riker eating gagh without comment is certainly a huge flub. The other stuff, though, well, let's put it this way. I love Russian culture. The music is amazing, the literature is some of the best ever, the art, the architecture, borscht and piroshki, I've always loved all this stuff, and have for a long time. I wrote my doctoral dissertation on a topic related to Russian culture. But do I approve of Putin, or pretty much anything he does? Hell no, he's an evil dictator, and I wouldn't want to live in the country, which has always had all kinds of problems in its government, and has a history in which the constant catchphrase is "and then things got worse." Bottom line is that the culture and the government are two very separate things, and it's possible to be fascinated by one while disapproving of the other.
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

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I think STIII and STV did a lot to spoil the portrayal of the Klingons. VI tried to bring it back to something more interesting, but it was all downhill from there, IMO.
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

Post by Durandal_1707 »

Spoil what, though? The TOS portrayal of the Klingons could be almost completely summed up as "one-dimensional moustache twirlers."
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

Post by Admiral X »

They weren't space Vikings yet, though.
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

Post by StrangeDevice »

Trek's one weakness when it comes to developing their alien races, has always ironically been one of the Planet of Hats, even for long-term races like the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, even the Vulcans. Me personally, I'm a huge fan of Duane's Rihannsu depiction of Romulan culture in "My Enemy, My Ally" and Ford's fascinating twenty-second century Klingons of "The Final Reflection" because the sheer breadth of implied attitudes makes it feel a lot less monocultural. I have a theory that we see the currently prevailing demographic of Klingons in the television series, the Kahless worshippers, but there are others milling about in the background as well.

And that most importantly, despite historical revisionism to the contrary, it hasn't always been this way. Their culture has changed over the centuries and evolved, there was a genuine progression in what we saw.
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Re: Lonely Among Us (TNG)

Post by Crowley »

Durandal_1707 wrote:
Dindu wrote:Every depiction of religion i can recall is either alien cultures of the week shown to be too dumb to live, or the half-assed at best religion of the Bajorans, which is, itself, not even a religion because it is DEMONSTRABLY TRUE.
I thought the Bajoran religion was pretty cool, up until they turned it into a black-and-white angels-and-demons cliché. The earlier depiction was way more interesting, with the Prophets being one of the few truly alien entities in Trek (as opposed to all the humans wearing various hats). It was ambiguous, and it was a religion, because while it was certainly demonstrably true that the Prophets existed, whether they were gods, or whether they even knew they were being worshipped as gods, or whether they even knew what being worshipped as gods meant was up for question, as were the limits of their abilities. You have no idea how mad "The Reckoning" made me for screwing all this up.
Personally I'm fine with the Pah-wraiths in concept, though I do think the show made them a cliched "religion of evil". It would have been interesting to see it handled sort of as an analogue of real-world satanic ideology: The Prophets are about all sorts of vague intangible transcendental stuff, while the Pah-wraiths can help people right here and now. A gross simplification, I know.

Now I'm wondering if there is a group that worships the Q somewhere in the Star Trek universe...
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