KOTOR 2: The Sith Lords vs. The Last Jedi

[Karha of Honor]

Going by the EU(ugh), the Rebellion/New Republic decided to be overly vindictive in regards to the Empire, and made every officer of the Imperial military a war criminal that needed to be arrested.


Imperial Instruments of Surrender

The Imperial Instruments of Surrender was a document signed by New Republic Chancellor Mon Mothma and Galactic Empire Grand Vizier Mas Amedda following the Battle of Jakku in 5 ABY. The Instruments marked an initial armistice between both factions, setting the stage to a formal end to hostilities and reduction of the Empire's power.[5] It forced the defeated Empire to abide by the terms of the Galactic Concordance. Mon Mothma issued another declaration designating all surviving Imperial officers as war criminals but granting conditional pardons to civilian functionaries including Mas Amedda, provided they complied with the articles of the Galactic Concordance.[1] Despite this formality, the Imperial Navy was in fact allowed to remain united, so long as it remained within the borders of the Imperial remnant.[6] The officers who did not accept surrender retreated to the outer portions of the galaxy and established another faction. These war criminals would then keep their forces at the ready in case conflict were to break out, leading to a cold war between the Imperial hardliners and the New Republic.[7]

The signing of the Imperial Instruments of Surrender took place north of Hanna City, capital city of the planet Chandrila.[1]

So, what we have here is that the New Republic said that in addition to giving total amnesty to all the civilian politicians in the Empire, it also made every Imperial who had the rank of ensign or above a war criminal. So, some officer working at an Imperial BX, or flying patrol in a TIE fighter is expecting a trial for daring to wear a uniform, while a politician who signed the order for Wookie slavery gets off scot free.

This makes me wonder if the end of the OT's Civil war was a bit like the end of World War I's Treaty of Paris, with the winners being so gravely incensed that they made sure the pen was dry when the surrendering Imperials pen was dry when they came to sign.

So, with the EU, the First Order is analogous to the Nazis rising in response from being humiliated and having to do what they thought was right in order to have some pride in who they were.

Without the EU, it just seems that the New Republic is so inept at what they do that we wonder if Luke, Leia, and Han just smoked a bong while making decisions when it came to running the new government they set up.

Right after they beat the Empire the Vong smashed them but writers did hate the idea of competent government beoing around for at least decades.

[Wargriffin]

Granted the old EU made the New Republic rather easily vexed Sheep but atleast they had a military and would pull through when it counted

I'm suppose to believe that the First Order has effectively neutered the New Republic with one surgical strike?

Thats like saying, you can easily avert a war by just nuking the US capital. Clearly It would just surrender afterwards.


____


Kylo is a monster, I mean I make fun of the old EU's Han is a terrible Father treatment of his three kids... but Kylo has pretty much proved Han right in every way "He had too much Vader in him"


and Last hammers that home with his fall... He doesn't as pointed out dig through the rubble to kill Luke IE his Uncle who he thought was trying to kill him... He runs off , Grabs the other knights of Ren and butchers his fellow students.

[Madner Kami]

Imo, it is pointless to try to characterize any character based on what we gained from TLJ or draw conclusions about motivations or really anything from that movie. This piece of "art" is intentionally not making any sense, as it tries to subvert everything, including it's own subversion.

[Ordo]

I made these comments elsewhere but I think they'll help shed light on some of the story decisions RJ made in TLJ:

When you get right down to it, the storyline RJ really wanted to tell...was Luke's and perhaps Kylo Ren's. Looking at his past body of work (Looper/Breaking Bad) RJ enjoys dealing with 'villains' and 'broken' people. I mean all our new heroes (Poe, Finn & Rey) fail...and fail spectacularly. Rey and Poe both get handed the idiot/conflict ball while Finn goes on a side adventure. In the films climax all our new heroes are sidelined and it's up to Luke to step in and 'save the day'. Heck, Luke is also the one with the most memorable lines, and is the person to hand Kylo Ren his most humiliating defeat to date.

I think RJ tried to challenge the new characters in ways he thought would be a joy to tell...but I honestly don't think that's where his heart was in this story. I mean sure Rey get's some revelations and things to do...but it all serves to engineer a scenario where Kylo Ren ascends to power...so Luke can save the day later on. With Finn I think RJ labeled him "Resistance hero" and thus completely missed the potential storytelling opportunities with a former Storm Trooper.

*****

Let's take a look at Rian Johnson's own character contributions to the trilogy, Holdo and Rose.

To me, the problem with Holdo is that she's right because the author says she's right. She's supposedly a strong female character because she takes charge of the situation, and does possible the most awesome thing (Visually) in this trilogy so far with her Lightspeed ram. However, her shutting Poe out isn't really handled well and we don't really see enough of her 'skill' as a leader to just accept that Poe should blindly do as she says. In fact...her presence is actually keeping us from a better Story line. What should've happened is that Leia is the one who Poe comes into conflict with over her seeming lack of action. By putting Leia in a coma RJ robbed us of a chance to have Poe wrestling with his nature as a military maverick, and his loyalty/belief in Leia. In this scenario it should be made clear to the audience (possible by Leia having a conversation with Ackbar) that the reason for such secrecy is that Leia knows if anyone tries to flee (and as Rose said several had so far that day) and is captured by the FO then Snoke/Kylo will yank any and all information from their mind, potentially dooming her plan to save them all. In this scenario Ackbar is the one to do the Lightspeed Ram (Which is a good way for a fan favorite to go out....taking your enemies with you). However...RJ needed Leia in a coma so Luke could have his moment on Ach-to where he finally reconnects with her via the force.

Now, let's talk Rose. She was created because Finn needed someone to challenge him, in RJ's mind. So he gives her an establishing scene to show she is capable and then sends the pair off on an adventure in which Finn seems to 'relearn' lessons he learned in the first film. I think what happened here is that RJ liked the idea of doing a bond style sequence in a Star Wars film....and intended for Rose to be kind of a 'bond-girl'...especially since in the Artbook it mentions that they originally planned for Rose to wear a dress on Canto Bight that showed Finn just how stunning she looked...a sequence that was then meant to be fulfilled by her First Order uniform. Here I think that a mixture of time constraints and a realization of how bad it might look to have Rose be a 'Bond-Girl' contributed to what we see on screen. Rose becomes adversarial with Finn after their initial meeting, but warms to him once again over the course of the adventure. She is again right because the author says she is, spouting his words "Save what you love" which is not a BAD concept per-say but it's delivery is heavy handed and doesn't really fit with the arc Finn has been on up till this point. If Finn and Rose's adventure had seen Finn focusing more and more on killing the enemy than defending people (Finn arguing that his friends and others won't be safe until the enemy is completely destroyed) then Rose's words would carry more weight. As it stands, she just comes off as (at best) an angel on Finn's shoulder chiding him to do the right thing.

So there we are, this is, IMHO, how RJ handled two 'Strong' female characters of his own creation. I don't think RJ intends any sexism but rather the fact his heart being with Luke's story arc contributed to their writing and portrayal being as it was seen on screen.

*****

If RJ really wanted to challenge Finn's morality/Decisions then he needed to engineer a situation where Finn is forced to confront other Storm Troopers in a scenario that doesn't involve blaster fire. I mean let's say this master Hacker is on a neutral world, one the FO dare not conquer (Think Mannan from KOTOR). So now Finn and Rose have to deal with the FO trying to make them look bad, confronting Finn with the names of everyone he killed in TFA who was wearing Storm Trooper armor, as he's trying to convince this Hacker to sneak off with them. You could have a touch of espionage with your Morality-play...showing Finn using non-lethal take downs when he can, but ultimately deciding to use minimum force necessary (including killing if he has no choice) because in the end...the Machinery of the FO must be stopped...or it will continue ruining more lives like his own and all the Troopers who are fighting for a master that doesn't give a damn about them. However, his willingness to use non-lethal tactics should've been noticed....and possible lead to some Troopers reconsidering their loyalty....something that could pay off in the final film.

TLJ has some great ideas, but oddly enough the biggest issues is the hands off approach by the higher ups. This is the exact OPPOSITE issue many people felt the Disney era of Star Wars would have. Instead of Kathleen Kennedy shoving her hand up the writer/directors rear and working them like a puppet, she has stepped back and tried to give them as much freedom as possible. This backfired with Solo since she had to spend too much money fixing the issues the first directors caused, and it didn't make the money necessary to recoup that loss (Which is a shame, as overall it's a solidly fun Star Wars adventure, that's easier to love than TLJ)

With TLJ, a little more guidance could've helped iron out the rough patches. I've detailed some of my ideas, but let me go further. In my version, it's made clear that there are Republic forces left over, but SKB (in TFA) specifically targeted multiple vital Republic Military C&C, and staging areas. So they are in dissary and forced into a fighting retreat, which is why they can't help the Resistance. The general plan is to scatter then link up with allies in the outer rim to form a core government/military body to begin fighting back against the FO.

I'd have sent Finn and Rose to Nar Shaddah on a quest to find Lando to get his help on their mission. NOW we can have a bunch of rollicking actions scenes where Finn can take down criminal slaver scum without moral issue. They turn out to be too late, as Lando is reported dead and they are forced to go with their next best option. I might also imply that the FO has a deal with the hutts, one which Finn and Rose discovers and has them forced to play Cat and mouse with Captain Phasma in the underbelly of Nar Shaddah before escaping. This would lend some actual weight to Finn and Phasma's fight later on.

I'd also have it turn out that Lando faked his death to escape the hutts, but shows up AFTER Finn and Rose leave with DJ. Still he mets up with their (surprised) contact and finds out what's happened to Leia, Han etc. This allows Lando and Chewie to be piloting the Falcon on Crait with Rey in the Gunner seat.

With Luke, since we've established that Snoke is Really good at linking people's minds...we reveal that the reason Luke is staying on Ach-to is because Snoke found a way into his mind.When Luke first met Snoke he didn't know what he was, the two even working together to uncover lost lore, it was only later that the truth came out and by then it was too late. So now anytime Luke connects with the force, Snoke can access his mind...meaning that if he did help Leia he'd literally be a mole for the bad guys. he's spent the last six years on Ach-to trying to find a way to purge himself of this connection to no avail...and the string of failures is starting to weigh on him.

In this scenario Luke is reluctant to teach Rey because he fears he's just sending a lamb to the slaughter, but does at least try to improve her mental defenses. She still ends up running off to Kylo Ren because of her vision.

So when Kylo Ren kills Snoke and takes power he frees Luke to act...which results in the projection that utterly humiliates Kylo Ren on Crait. Though this time I'll leave Luke's fate as ambiguous. I know RJ felt it was Luke's time but I legitimately feel he jumped the gun on this one, and would at least give the next director a choice on whether or not to use Luke.

Those are my thoughts on the subject.

[Winter]

Imo, it is pointless to try to characterize any character based on what we gained from TLJ or draw conclusions about motivations or really anything from that movie. This piece of "art" is intentionally not making any sense, as it tries to subvert everything, including it's own subversion.

In my opinion, one of the major issues with Last is that to try and subvert everyone's expectations they sacrificed characterization and gave everyone new goals that were either in conflict with their goals from the first film, completely changed several characters to make them fit their new goals or ignored decades of characterization for shock value.

Kylo Ren, who's goal was to "Honor" his Grandfather and prove that he was not just as powerful as Vader now wants to let the past die after Snoke makes fun of his helmet. Poe, who while a hot shot still cared about his fellow pilots and respected Leia is now the most insubordinate member of the Rebellion and doesn't really seem to care about those under his command. Finn, after confronting his fear about facing the First Order now seeks to run away because he's afraid of the First Order. And Luke and Leia act nothing like their old selves because reasons.

And Rey went from wanting to find her parents and killing Ren for the murder of Han and putting Finn in a coma now is in love with him after he tells his side of the story which quite clearly favors himself as the victim and Luke the villain and is ready to almost get married to him after knowing him for a few hours.

As I mentioned before I think one the reasons everyone is more okay with Kreia and her goals even if they don't agree with her is because she is her own character instead of being Bastila from the first game. The underlining issue with the characters in Last is that none of them are really the characters from the first film except maybe Rey since she at least starts with the same goal she had at the end of Awakens but even she changes what she's after with little to no reason.

Another issue with Last vs. Sith Lords and TTT is in relation to a video essay about Last in which the person making the essay said that Rey, Finn and Poe were the most well rounded characters in the series who had the most development. Now as I've said before if you like TLJ that's fine and I'm not going to say that this person is wrong because they don't share a opinion that is different from mine. All I will say is that I strongly disagree as I feel that Rey, Finn and Poe don't grow as they are the same people they were at the end of Awakens.

Rey is a powerful person unsure of her place in the galaxy, Finn has overcome his fear of the First Order and is ready to fight alongside the Resistance and Poe is a skilled leader who cares about those under his command. Which is exactly where they were at the end of the last movie so from as far as I can see nothing has changed.

Take this in contrast with Mara in TTT, she starts Heir to the Empire hating Luke but at the end of that books comes to, at the very least, respect him, then in Dark Force she comes to trust him and even value him as a person and in The Last Command she sees him as a valued friend. And with Sith Lords where every character from the start of the game is a little bit different at the end of the game with the only exception being Kreia who refuses to see herself as wrong in anyway.

With the former, while each change is really just a small step forward Mara is still headed in the right direction and each change is felt throughout the story. And with the latter you can still tell that everyone is has been effected by this.

But with Last, from my point of view, no one really grows and what changes are made are done for the plot but not for the characters and in the end everyone is right back where they started so in the end it feels like no one has learned anything. And in addition to just redoing the plot to The Empire Strikes Back the film also reuses plot points from Awakens. The Force calling to Rey to give her unclear visions, Finn running from what his afraid of and Ren's refusal to be redeemed was all done in the first film making the story, for me, feel rather redundant.

Switching series for a moment one of my issues with the Tomb Raider games Rise and Shadow is that their the same plot from the first game which does make the series feel repetitive. However, I do feel that Lara has a character arc that is always moving her forward. In the first game she starts off as someone who craves adventure only to find a nightmare and is forced to go through horrible traumatic events that scare her both physically and emotionally. Rise has her trying to escape this pain by trying to vindicate her father's name but is forced to destroy the one thing that can do so because it is not meant for the world. Thus Lara finds no way to escape her pain and must confront it which leads us into Shadow where Lara finally does confront her personal demons and is able to except what's happened to her and she goes on to work to reconnect with the world.

While the plot is a retread of the first game and Lara does make a similar mistake at the start of each game you can see that there is a progression to her character arc and we see her working to over come her personal issues. Lara grows as a character while Rey, Finn, Poe and Ren are just going through the same story and have yet to actually change.

[Karha of Honor]

Granted the old EU made the New Republic rather easily vexed Sheep but atleast they had a military and would pull through when it counted

I'm suppose to believe that the First Order has effectively neutered the New Republic with one surgical strike?

Thats like saying, you can easily avert a war by just nuking the US capital. Clearly It would just surrender afterwards.


____


Kylo is a monster, I mean I make fun of the old EU's Han is a terrible Father treatment of his three kids... but Kylo has pretty much proved Han right in every way "He had too much Vader in him"


and Last hammers that home with his fall... He doesn't as pointed out dig through the rubble to kill Luke IE his Uncle who he thought was trying to kill him... He runs off , Grabs the other knights of Ren and butchers his fellow students.

Han was a bad father in the EU? I only recall being a bad father when the Vong killed Chewie and that only lasted for about 6 months.

[Madner Kami]

Han was a bad father in the EU? I only recall being a bad father when the Vong killed Chewie and that only lasted for about 6 months.

The Vong killed Chewie for 6 months? That's kinda pointlessly cruel. And you were a bad father during that entire time? What did you do to your children, while the Vong killed Chewie?

[Wargriffin]

They dropped a Moon on Chewie


I said I make fun of the notion... cause the only things people seem to remember about Han's relationship to his kids is...

A: He liked Jaina more then the boys, until she started being a 'bug slut' His words not mine

B: Always belittling Jacen and then once he turned evil claiming they should have just killed the kid when he was born.

and C:... Han was pretty good to Anakin II... I suppose most people just over play his behavior toward Jacen.

[Karha of Honor]

They dropped a Moon on Chewie


I said I make fun of the notion... cause the only things people seem to remember about Han's relationship to his kids is...

A: He liked Jaina more then the boys, until she started being a 'bug slut' His words not mine

B: Always belittling Jacen and then once he turned evil claiming they should have just killed the kid when he was born.

and C:... Han was pretty good to Anakin II... I suppose most people just over play his behavior toward Jacen.

In the few YA books i read i recall he was good solid cool dad.

[Worffan101]

@Ordo: That is a really solid analysis of the problems with TLJ!