Empire Strikes Back

[Worffan101]

even if that something was tedious edgelord bullcrap that makes Revenge of the Sith look like a triumph of cinema.

I'm not going to watch episode 9. I have no confidence in Abrams as a filmmaker, and Johnson successfully destroyed any interest I might have had in seeing where the boring plot threads JJ halfheartedly threw out there were going. I can't say it wasn't Johnson's fault, because he owns that fuckup, but I don't have contempt for him like I do for Abrams.

Okay going to come off as a bit of a contrarian but Revenge Of the Sith is pretty good, no triumph of cinema but it is my favorite Star Wars film ever, is in clunky at parts, sure but at times I find that just to be in character for the characters.

Still, I do agree with you about having no confidence in Abrams. I think he can create good films, and I don't have anything against him but there isn't anything for a trilogy finale in the TLJ ending for him to work with. It isn't even Johnsons fault, even if I do have major issue with his style during interviews, he shouldn't give any, but it isn't his fault he was given a middle movie with plot thread he obviously didn't want to work with, that didn't even have any answers when they were thought up, in a verse that he wanted to deconstruct more than he wanted to create a middle point for the final film.

Revenge of the Sith was a movie that could and should have been great but lacked the foundation to be great on.

Still better than the predecessors.

Abrams can create watchable trash. I'm going to come right out and say it: Episode VII is nothing but a shallow ripoff of ANH with the artificial stakes raised to a laughable degree. See, the size of the Imperial penis compensation station doesn't matter. How many planets they destroy doesn't matter to the story. What matters is how it affects the characters and we barely got ANY of that in TFA. Whiny McEmo killing Han Solo was a thousand times more effective despite not holding a candle to Obi-Wan's death structurally because we actually give a fuck about Han Solo and so do the other characters.

I still think Johnson isn't a very good filmmaker and I think he delivered a garbage movie, but for fucksake, at least he made an effort and has genuine creative bones in his body. Creative bones that created a barely watchable slog of a movie that I have no desire to see again, but at least it provoked thought. Angry, bitter thought, but thought nonetheless, and about actual story elements rather than a cheap rehashed death scene.

I still hate TLJ and will never watch it again, but jesus, at least Johnson gave a shit, unlike Abrams, who I don't think is even capable of understanding what giving a shit means.

[Proman1398]

Revenge of the Sith was a movie that could and should have been great but lacked the foundation to be great on.

Still better than the predecessors.

Abrams can create watchable trash. I'm going to come right out and say it: Episode VII is nothing but a shallow ripoff of ANH with the artificial stakes raised to a laughable degree. See, the size of the Imperial penis compensation station doesn't matter. How many planets they destroy doesn't matter to the story. What matters is how it affects the characters and we barely got ANY of that in TFA. Whiny McEmo killing Han Solo was a thousand times more effective despite not holding a candle to Obi-Wan's death structurally because we actually give a fuck about Han Solo and so do the other characters.

I still think Johnson isn't a very good filmmaker and I think he delivered a garbage movie, but for fucksake, at least he made an effort and has genuine creative bones in his body. Creative bones that created a barely watchable slog of a movie that I have no desire to see again, but at least it provoked thought. Angry, bitter thought, but thought nonetheless, and about actual story elements rather than a cheap rehashed death scene.

I still hate TLJ and will never watch it again, but jesus, at least Johnson gave a shit, unlike Abrams, who I don't think is even capable of understanding what giving a shit means.

As I said, I don't think that Revenge Of Sith is perfect. It has big flaws but I just don't find most of the complaints leveled at it very truthful, at least to my own taste. I think its the best of the Star Wars films. There is no irony in the belief, I being 100% sincere. But I do get that it isn't a popular opinion and I think that is an okay thing.



You see for how shallow the TFA was, I still prefer to TLJ on a purely what is going on level. Like there isn't enough time spent on how and why the characters do things but it also has a level of storytelling that TLJ just doesn't have. It keeps things simple.

Oh, dislike for just how weirdly unoriginal it is, and how it bends itself backward so that certain events makes sense, but only to itself because for the first time in a Star Wars film I am forced to ask 'How did this get to this point'.

But TLJ has that in even more spades, I have no idea why after losing their main base and their only super weapon that was apparently better than the Death Star, why the Galaxy just folds against a force that was meant to a be too small to control the Galaxy without an army. So once again I'm forced to ask 'How did this get to this point', except this is the next day instead of an about thirty-year gap TFA had sense Return of the Jedi.

I think a huge issue with the TLJ is that it follows a lot of the edgy superhero films trait of being a deconstruction of the heroes. But forgetting that the last Star Wars trilogy was already kind of a deconstruction of the Jedi and therefore if the franchise was to keep momentum the story needed this trilogy to be a straight reconstruction of them.

But I still hold Johnson to a lower standard than I do Abrams. Because at least he isn't a massive hypocrite, that showcases a lore book for why he didn't need to show Luke's newer force powers but at the same time thinks its okay to invalidate the piles of books that fleshed out certain characters. And he acts like a massive troll at times online for little reason, some of it would be funny if the things, if he had done anything with some of these plot threads, but instead it's him being mad that people disliked him just not giving Stoke any backstory at all, but instead killing him off in the middle of the Trilogy. Sorry if that doesn't make a lot of sense I'm not the best at presenting my views coherently.

But saying that, I have watched the TLJ more times than I have watched TFA. So maybe I hate myself. Or maybe I find it interesting to decode why I dislike films more than just rewatching average films like TFA.

Still more relevant to this movie, it's funny how the original constructs the Jedi. We see how Yoda's calm dispatched nature, he isn't connected with the universe so what should be real moral issues are abstract to him. Here is presented almost like a virtue, its something he should be proud of and we should strive to be like him.

But in the Prequels its shown as the Order's downfall, and he never understood this. It doesn't make him a bad person but it does make him more human. The Prequels take this wise mentor, who had answers to the secrets of the universe and turned him into a person who can make mistakes. But the biggest one is that he never wanted to learn how other people really work outside the Order.

The biggest failing of this though comes from that it isn't really given enough screen time for this to develop except in the Revenge Of the Sith and there it can come out of nowhere to some people so no one understands why Anakin doesn't listen to Yoda's advice. Not realizing we're not meant to agree totally with it and the real answer to sort of thing is between Anakin obsession of no one he loves dieing and Yoda's who gives a shit attitude about people who die out of the Order. A balance if you will.

That's shown in Luke during the Return of The Jedi. If you remember he also denies Yoda's advice of letting his friends die and his advice to kill Vader. And he ends up right. At least about one of those things, because he's friends might have been fine without him.

[Yukaphile]

They really should have done what Marvel is doing and adapted Legends into the big screen instead of declaring it non-canon. Who else would have loved to see a Yuuzhan Vong War on the big screen? Or the KOTOR games? Or Grand Admiral Thrawn? Or Dark Empire?

[CrypticMirror]

They really should have done what Marvel is doing and adapted Legends into the big screen instead of declaring it non-canon. Who else would have loved to see a Yuuzhan Vong War on the big screen? Or the KOTOR games? Or Grand Admiral Thrawn? Or Dark Empire?

They did Thrawn on Star Wars: Rebels, and it was pretty good. He worked better as a series antagonist than he would as a movie one. His plans were too long running to be given proper airing in a movie where you only get a couple of real large action set pieces. As for the Vong, and the rest, hard pass. The Vong plotline killed to book series and nobody even knows what the others are about.

[clearspira]

even if that something was tedious edgelord bullcrap that makes Revenge of the Sith look like a triumph of cinema.

I'm not going to watch episode 9. I have no confidence in Abrams as a filmmaker, and Johnson successfully destroyed any interest I might have had in seeing where the boring plot threads JJ halfheartedly threw out there were going. I can't say it wasn't Johnson's fault, because he owns that fuckup, but I don't have contempt for him like I do for Abrams.

Okay going to come off as a bit of a contrarian but Revenge Of the Sith is pretty good, no triumph of cinema but it is my favorite Star Wars film ever, is in clunky at parts, sure but at times I find that just to be in character for the characters.

Still, I do agree with you about having no confidence in Abrams. I think he can create good films, and I don't have anything against him but there isn't anything for a trilogy finale in the TLJ ending for him to work with. It isn't even Johnsons fault, even if I do have major issue with his style during interviews, he shouldn't give any, but it isn't his fault he was given a middle movie with plot thread he obviously didn't want to work with, that didn't even have any answers when they were thought up, in a verse that he wanted to deconstruct more than he wanted to create a middle point for the final film.

Revenge of the Sith was a movie that could and should have been great but lacked the foundation to be great on.

Still better than the predecessors.

Abrams can create watchable trash. I'm going to come right out and say it: Episode VII is nothing but a shallow ripoff of ANH with the artificial stakes raised to a laughable degree. See, the size of the Imperial penis compensation station doesn't matter. How many planets they destroy doesn't matter to the story. What matters is how it affects the characters and we barely got ANY of that in TFA. Whiny McEmo killing Han Solo was a thousand times more effective despite not holding a candle to Obi-Wan's death structurally because we actually give a fuck about Han Solo and so do the other characters.

I still think Johnson isn't a very good filmmaker and I think he delivered a garbage movie, but for fucksake, at least he made an effort and has genuine creative bones in his body. Creative bones that created a barely watchable slog of a movie that I have no desire to see again, but at least it provoked thought. Angry, bitter thought, but thought nonetheless, and about actual story elements rather than a cheap rehashed death scene.

I still hate TLJ and will never watch it again, but jesus, at least Johnson gave a shit, unlike Abrams, who I don't think is even capable of understanding what giving a shit means.

I'll say one thing that TFA got right: that ending with Rey meeting Luke had such massive potential for him to take up the mantel of Obi Wan or Qui Gon or Yoda and go on one last great adventure to redeem Emo Git and/or avenge his fallen friend. Think about how great that film could have been and how much more respect we would have for Rey if she actually earned her powers as opposed to being handed them on a silver platter with zero effort. THAT is what I hate about TLJ - by squandering this chance in every possible way, Rian and Kathleen Kennedy blew our last chance to ever see Luke, Han and Leia together again. That's it, this opportunity will never come again even if you somehow brought Han and Luke back to life thanks to the passing of Carrie Fisher. And no, CGI duplicates and cutting room floor footage is just not the same thing.

I'm going to fall into the ''No True Scotsman'' fallacy here, but as far as I am concerned, if you are satisfied with how Episode 8 went, you are not a Star Wars fan who is interested in anything more than ''ooh! pretty explosions!'' (I'm not saying this is you, this is a general statement to the defenders of this film).

[Yukaphile]

Well, the Star Wars fandom is pretty superficial, I've noticed. They just seem to want a general retelling of the same story over and over, at least that's how I see it.

[Deledrius]

Well, the Star Wars fandom is pretty superficial, I've noticed. They just seem to want a general retelling of the same story over and over, at least that's how I see it.

I feel like that's dismissive. I know I've seen this excuse used to invalidate criticisms in Star Trek, too.

Sure, you can always find people like that, but is it really a good characterization of an entire fanbase, especially in one as mainstream as Star Wars? I doubt it. It appeals to far too many different kinds of people to generalize this way.

[Yukaphile]

It's definitely not characteristic of the main audience, which is the moviegoing crowd, but then, people will just swallow whatever shit is thrown on the screen. There is absolutely no reason Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen deserves to have made that much money. At all. So maybe I'm just jaded.

I do know Star Wars fans can be incredibly toxic too. Here, just look at this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFu2IFdjCaw

[Proman1398]

It's definitely not characteristic of the main audience, which is the moviegoing crowd, but then, people will just swallow whatever shit is thrown on the screen. There is absolutely no reason Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen deserves to have made that much money. At all. So maybe I'm just jaded.

I do know Star Wars fans can be incredibly toxic too. Here, just look at this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFu2IFdjCaw

Yeah, the problem isn't that the Star Wars fandom is incredibly toxic in comparison to other fandoms, the problem is that Star Wars is such a large group that it has such massive number of toxic people in it.

But also what tends to happen is that we get fans introduced to Star Wars coming in from the Original Trilogy, they want one thing from these films, we got younger fans from the Prequels, as the documentary The Prequels Strikes Back, they want a different thing from these films, and now we'll get people whose first experience comes from this Trilogy.

But for now the most vocal people are from the first two groups, and you they don't get along with each other because one of them spent most of their childhood hating on their version of Star Wars. But most of the OG fans loved the TFA, or at least that was the public opinion and proclaiming that the true Star Wars had returned, which annoyed the Prequels lovers because they wanted something different than that. We now have fans of the Prequels and some of the OG attacking cast because they don't like something.

And that is not to say that it the whole of either group, just that their both such big groups that great deal of toxic people will spring up. The size of them makes it inevitable.

So Disney has entered a state now that means they can never satisfy their entire fanbase because the people working for that like Star Wars, they only like apart of the franchise and don't really care about the other part.

[Admiral X]

Well, the Star Wars fandom is pretty superficial, I've noticed. They just seem to want a general retelling of the same story over and over, at least that's how I see it.

If that was the case, they should have loved TFA. But I sure as hell didn't, because it didn't make any sense.