Return of The Jedi

[Yukaphile]

^ Exactly this. Vader would have killed everyone in Cloud City. Which is another reason I tend to dislike Leia so much. She knows how viciously oppressive the Empire is, yet can't understand why Lando would "side" with them, not so much out of self-interest, but to protect the innocent civilians of the city. You can't argue that's only a Legends concept, either, since the Empire blew up a whole planet to make a point, and Lando even warned people to leave within the movie - only within the film verse. And yet Chewie still tries to murder Lando anyway. I don't find that funny like other fans do. And lo and behold, it delays them long enough to rescue Han, which Lando had probably considered anyway and factored into his plans, so... yeah, they paid for their stupidity.

[Deledrius]

She knows how viciously oppressive the Empire is, yet can't understand why Lando would "side" with them, not so much out of self-interest, but to protect the innocent civilians of the city.

It's a Major Kira situation. She's been out there fighting, risking her life, sending people to their deaths to free them all, and here's a guy who has just let the enemy's Right Hand walk around his city instead of blowing the place up and dealing a huge blow to the Empire. From her point of view, he's a spineless coward who is using his responsibility to his people as an excuse to save his own skin and even sell out an old "friend" to keep his cushy position as governor.

She doesn't care about his PoV or trying to understand it because her own is already sufficiently compelling to her, and she's not really wrong. Neither is Lando. They're both doing what they think is right given the situation they've been put in during a brutal and bloody war. They have different priorities, goals, and power to act on them.

This is what makes their interactions into interesting drama with strong characterization despite minimal explicit exposition, IMO.

[Tonesthegeek]

After playing SWKOTOR I actually have a theory of how the battle of Endor can start so woefully one sided and yet somehow the Rebels manage to best the Emperor's strongest fleet and troops. KOTOR introduced a force ability I believe was called Battle Meditation, in which a well focused mind can somehow influence the minds and actions of entire armies at a subconscious level, increasing their overall effectiveness in combat. What if Palpatine possessed that ability? As he sat there in his chair relatively calm and content, he was influencing his troops as they launched their attack on the rebels. Then when suddenly Luke and Vader are engaged in battle, that becomes all Palpatine is focused on, everything else just appears to lose relavence in his mind and yet it is conveniently at that time the tide of the battle begins to turn. Basically the Battle of Endor was lost by the Empire because that one edge they had kept up for years was suddenly missing because Palpatine was distracted.

[SuccubusYuri]

After playing SWKOTOR I actually have a theory of how the battle of Endor can start so woefully one sided and yet somehow the Rebels manage to best the Emperor's strongest fleet and troops. KOTOR introduced a force ability I believe was called Battle Meditation, in which a well focused mind can somehow influence the minds and actions of entire armies at a subconscious level, increasing their overall effectiveness in combat. What if Palpatine possessed that ability? As he sat there in his chair relatively calm and content, he was influencing his troops as they launched their attack on the rebels. Then when suddenly Luke and Vader are engaged in battle, that becomes all Palpatine is focused on, everything else just appears to lose relavence in his mind and yet it is conveniently at that time the tide of the battle begins to turn. Basically the Battle of Endor was lost by the Empire because that one edge they had kept up for years was suddenly missing because Palpatine was distracted.

Chuck does bring this up in his review of KOTOR, but that is a theory that appeared in the Thrawn trilogy. Thrawn theorized that battle meditation is the most logical explanation for why everything went to shit as soon as Palpatine died.

Though I've never personally heard the observation in regards to the movie itself, but that does kind of gel with the idea.

[TGLS]

On complicated vs. complexity:

I think the example of memory against 1 hand of poker was a little weak. Sure, memory is a pretty trivial game if you could keep all the facts straight. But one hand of poker is probably weaker. If you have an idea (or just a reference card) that describes the probability of poker hands, there's almost nothing to the game. Whoever wins the hand, well, wins, so there is no reason for the other player(s) to fold.

Now, the real reason where this under cuts the argument is when you stop and think for a minute. One hand of poker is pretty vapid. But dozen are more interesting. You get a feel for how the other player estimates risk, the value of their hand, the value of other people's hands. And that's a clear example of making something more complicated, but it's also adding complexity.

[Fianna]

The battle turning in the Rebels' favor as soon as the Death Star blows up has a much simpler explanation. Once Vader and the Emperor are dead, there's no one left to reward them for carrying out their orders or to punish them for failure, so why would they stick around risking their lives when there's nothing in it for them? I assume most of the Imperial ships skedaddled after the Death Start blew, leaving only those too stupid/loyal behind for the Rebels to mop up.

[Linkara]

There's also simply the practical and symbolic matter of your giant support vessel getting blown up like it did - seeing that kind of destruction could appear to them to mean "Oh, shit, the rebels are doing much better than it looks, we should fall back and regroup." As for what it means to the Empire overall, one has to assume economically and politically the entire thing fell apart. With the dissolution of the Senate, only the regional governors have direct power over their respective systems. We don't know what the chain of command with the Empire was, but considering how overconfident he was, it's entirely possible that the Emperor didn't really HAVE a direct person who was supposed to take over in the event of his death - or perhaps Vader was in that role, but losing both meant that no one was sure who was in charge and who they should listen to.

Let's not even get how economically everything must have gone to hell - even if you assume the Empire could AFFORD a second Death Star, losing your political leader like that is going to send the market crashing down HARD, made no easier by the lack of any strong political leadership taking over and asserting control to keep things contained and play damage control. And even if they HAD that leadership, it's clear the Empire, being a fascist dictatorship, was more about military and authoritarian control through brute force than it was the other aspects of government. Sure, they recognized the IMPORTANCE of a strong economy, but they probably didn't have the experts needed to keep the Empire running. Suddenly, no one is getting a paycheck, nobody has any answers, and those giving orders only expect blind loyalty to sustain them... which will only happen for so long when you've got no one buying food, no one able to pay rent, etc.

[PapaPalpatine]

With the deaths of Vader and Ol' Palps, it's not hard to imagine the galaxy becoming bulkanized shortly after the battle of Endor. Each regional governor decides, "Well, there's no one I'm answerable to anymore so I'll just make myself president for life of my region."

And BAM! The Galaxy far, far away splinters into several different dictatorships.

[Yukaphile]

That's what happens in Legends.

[Jonathan101]

In Legends I believe it was established that Palpatines ultimate plan for the Death Star was to actually live there, having the power to destroy a planet at his fingertips and shifting the seat of power to as close to his very person as possible, as well as give himself time to research and practice the Dark Side stuff that REALLY interests him (also, write books) .

Overall I get the impression that it wasn't really overconfidence that prevented the Emperor from having designated successor; rather, it's that he didn't give a damn about successors in the first place- the Empire is an extension of his own personal will and ego, and if he dies and chaos ensues then so be it, because with his death it has outlived it's true purpose. The only exception would be if Vader of some other Sith Lord killed and succeeded him, but due to the nature of the Sith that wouldn't really be a designated successor thing so much as the other guy proving that he is stronger than Palpatine.

That would also explain why he was willing to throw away bazillions of credits on a cumbersome and expensive superweapon over the advice of military geniuses like Vader and Thrawn who preferred a stronger Imperial Navy- once again, not the point. Vader and Thrawn wanted what was good for the Empire; Palpatine wanted what was good for Palpatine. I would imagine that if he bankrupted the Empire with his projects or destabilised it with his terror weapon then he'd be fine with that as well; he might even think that a messy Chaotic Evil galaxy is better from a Dark Side perspective than an orderly Lawful Evil one, so long as he personally is powerful and safe.