The Earth is Dying

[Yukaphile]

There's no reason we can't have solar and wind and water energy. Other countries are switching over. That we aren't is disgraceful.

[Robovski]

There's no reason we can't have solar and wind and water energy. Other countries are switching over. That we aren't is disgraceful.

You fail to understand the problem or the history. The US piloted a lot of these plants, and was an early adopter of water power generation (which is more than a century old now). Water power generation is largely maxed unless you like further destroying biomes and displacing people in the US. Coal is literally dirt cheap and provides ready power on demand AND keeps people employed in parts of the US. Yes, it is filthy but people expect power to be there when it is wanted/needed not just when the sun shines or the wind blows. Nuclear power could provide that backbone but it's a lot more expensive than just burning fossils.

[LittleRaven]

There's no reason we can't have solar and wind and water energy. Other countries are switching over. That we aren't is disgraceful.

We ARE switching over.

US renewable energy sources accounted for nearly 20% of the country’s net electrical generation during the first half of 2018, according to new figures from the US Energy Information Administration, and narrowly beat out that provided by nuclear power.

But we use a LOT of power. We've spent almost a century building up our power grid, and what we have doesn't play super nicely with a lot of renewables. Now that's just an engineering problem, and one we're busy solving, but it takes time. You don't turn something that big around on a dime.

[Madner Kami]

Germany is doing AMAZING.

I was just about to say just that. France's grid would've literally broken down without our solar and wind energy, as either the river water is too hot for their reactors or frozen in winter. Meanwhile whoever invested in renewables, is earning cash like you wouldn't believe. Germany powers it's neighbours.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

How much of that "viability" was built on the backs of Gov grants. How's the solar industry in Spain or Germany doing?

Jesus man. They have google where you live, I promise.

Germany is doing AMAZING.

Germany has crossed a symbolic milestone in its energy transition by briefly covering around 100 percent of electricity use with renewables for the first time ever on 1 January. In the whole of last year, the world’s fourth largest economy produced a record 36.1 percent of its total power needs with renewable sources. But the country’s progress in emissions reductions stagnated for the third year in a row, likely putting its self-imposed 2020 climate targets out of reach.

Spain is doing pretty well too.

SPAIN’S progress to a low-carbon economy has taken a huge step forward with half of all power coming from renewable energy.

Data from Red Electrica de Espana shows that 45.8% of electricity came from renewable resources.

The data, which was taken from January and June, shows an 8.5% increase in renewable production.

This is not 'government grants' in action. This is the free market at it's finest. The cost of producing renewable energy is steadily dropping (economies of scale are starting to kick in) even as the outputs are steadily improving. (our tech is getting much more efficient) There's a reason that TEXAS, hardly a liberal bastion, is being covered in windmills these days. It just makes sense from an economic perspective.

But while everyone in the energy sector is quite certain that renewables are going to be booming for some time to come, we will ultimately run into some roadblocks. Renewables, as they exist right now, are fantastic for a lot of things...like air conditioning. But they're pretty bad at other things...like powering jet liners. They also suffer from a consistency problem - they're AWESOME when they work but sometimes they don't work at all. So we have to find a way to smooth out the spikes and valleys. Better batteries are what everyone is hoping for, but so far, they remain elusive.

But whoever cracks that problem is going to make a mint, so believe me, people are trying. History suggests somebody will eventually succeed.

Actually, they won't make a mint. That's part of the problem. Clean energy, once you really get the ball rolling, is so cheap and efficient that it's NOT expensive enough. You can't price gouge customers. You can't force people to decide between keeping the lights on or keeping food on the table. And that's bad for CEOs and stock prices. So you have to keep pumping money into crushing it.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

There's no reason we can't have solar and wind and water energy. Other countries are switching over. That we aren't is disgraceful.

You fail to understand the problem or the history. The US piloted a lot of these plants, and was an early adopter of water power generation (which is more than a century old now). Water power generation is largely maxed unless you like further destroying biomes and displacing people in the US. Coal is literally dirt cheap and provides ready power on demand AND keeps people employed in parts of the US. Yes, it is filthy but people expect power to be there when it is wanted/needed not just when the sun shines or the wind blows. Nuclear power could provide that backbone but it's a lot more expensive than just burning fossils.

And we're saving on those expenses by creating a planet where humans, the ones that use clean energy and the ones that use lead paint, can barely survive. But who cares. It's only, like, twenty years before the damage goes beyond irreversable into catastrophic! That's plenty of times to sell your stock options and set up beach-front resorts in Arizona.

[Antiboyscout]

How much of that "viability" was built on the backs of Gov grants. How's the solar industry in Spain or Germany doing?

Jesus man. They have google where you live, I promise.

Germany is doing AMAZING.

Germany has crossed a symbolic milestone in its energy transition by briefly covering around 100 percent of electricity use with renewables for the first time ever on 1 January. In the whole of last year, the world’s fourth largest economy produced a record 36.1 percent of its total power needs with renewable sources. But the country’s progress in emissions reductions stagnated for the third year in a row, likely putting its self-imposed 2020 climate targets out of reach.

Spain is doing pretty well too.

SPAIN’S progress to a low-carbon economy has taken a huge step forward with half of all power coming from renewable energy.

Data from Red Electrica de Espana shows that 45.8% of electricity came from renewable resources.

The data, which was taken from January and June, shows an 8.5% increase in renewable production.

This is not 'government grants' in action. This is the free market at it's finest. The cost of producing renewable energy is steadily dropping (economies of scale are starting to kick in) even as the outputs are steadily improving. (our tech is getting much more efficient) There's a reason that TEXAS, hardly a liberal bastion, is being covered in windmills these days. It just makes sense from an economic perspective.

But while everyone in the energy sector is quite certain that renewables are going to be booming for some time to come, we will ultimately run into some roadblocks. Renewables, as they exist right now, are fantastic for a lot of things...like air conditioning. But they're pretty bad at other things...like powering jet liners. They also suffer from a consistency problem - they're AWESOME when they work but sometimes they don't work at all. So we have to find a way to smooth out the spikes and valleys. Better batteries are what everyone is hoping for, but so far, they remain elusive.

But whoever cracks that problem is going to make a mint, so believe me, people are trying. History suggests somebody will eventually succeed.

Base load is a bitch and the goose neck from solar only makes it worse.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/worl ... imate.html
"Today, nearly a quarter of all electricity produced in Germany still comes from burning lignite, often called brown coal, one of the dirtiest fossil fuels, making Germany the world’s leader in the mining and burning of lignite, according to the International Energy Agency."

Considering the Electric Car was invented at roughly the same time as the internal combustion car, history doesn't seem to suggest a victory for electric.

[Riedquat]

Give me a few nuclear power stations rather than turning vast swathes of places into essentially industrial estates by covering them in wind turbines and solar panels please. Oh, and ditch the scaremongering about killing the planet. Make a mess of with quite big consequences, perhaps, but it's a million miles short of killing.

If people really want to help things for a decent future they need to stop having as many children.

[Yukaphile]

Is there anyone here who unironically believes solar panels gives you cancer? I sincerely hope not.

[LittleRaven]

Actually, they won't make a mint. That's part of the problem. Clean energy, once you really get the ball rolling, is so cheap and efficient that it's NOT expensive enough. You can't price gouge customers. You can't force people to decide between keeping the lights on or keeping food on the table. And that's bad for CEOs and stock prices. So you have to keep pumping money into crushing it.

Uh huh. And did you know that Stanley Meyer invented a car that would run on pure water? But of course, the big car conglomerates used the power of the government to crush his invention, and that's why you still have to buy gasoline to put in your car. (not, you know, the laws of thermodynamics or anything)

Look, I understand the benefits of conspiratorial thinking. It gives you a bad guy. A single evil force that if you can just remove, things will be better. And certainly, people in power do sometimes behave badly. But Exxon Mobile is not crushing renewable energy. Why would they? They have a better idea.

They're buying it.

Exxon Mobil is looking to secure between 100 and 250 megawatts of delivered solar or wind power in Texas, according to reporting from Bloomberg.

Oil majors around the world are ramping up their investments in renewables and electrification. Exxon has been slower to move on commercialized technologies, although it is backing "hundreds" of low-carbon R&D efforts.

...

“In general, corporate interest in long-term PPAs for wind and solar is growing rapidly across all sectors,” said Colin Smith, a senior solar analyst at Wood Mackenzie Power & Renewables. “Corporate adoption of renewable PPAs is becoming an arms-race; more and more you need to do it in order to keep up with your competitors who are doing it to earn profit or lower long-term costs.”

After all, at the end of the day, these are energy companies. As the energy business changes, they have to change too, lest they be left behind.

As to your belief that renewables are so cheap that there's just no money to be made by selling it...I have bad news for you. Even in the most optimistic scenario, someone is going to making good money selling you electricity.

There's a few reasons for this.

• Cheap is not the same as free. Sure, the sun is free, but you still have to make the solar panel, and the transformer, and the capacitors, and there's money to be made there. Plus, none of these things last forever.
• Consistency. Renewable energy is great when it's there, but it's not always there. Even here in sunny, windy Texas, there are days where the sun don't shine and the wind don't blow. But people still want to charge their IPADs. So you need smoothing solutions. These can be hydroelectric reservoirs, pneumatic storage, big ol' honkin batteries, or just rollover fossil fuel plants. But all of these solutions cost a lot a money, and you'll end up paying for them one way or another, in the form of....
• Grid fees. If you've already purchased solar panels for your house, then you've probably noticed that your electrical bill hasn't really gone down all that much
  , because grid fees are a good portion of your bill. And grid fees are not going anywhere in the foreseeable future, because truly living 'off the grid' is not going to be feasible for anyone except rich hobbyists.

The real benefit of switching to renewable energy (to the extent that it's practical) is not so much that it will be cheaper for the consumer, (it might ultimately be, but that will be a LONG time in the future) but that it will have fewer external costs. After all, coal power is cheap too...because we don't capture the costs of pollution and carbon dumping very accurately. Renewables aren't completely free of this problem, but as far as we know, they suffer from them to a much lower extent.

One of the big goals I have for my children is leaving them a world that is powered to a substantial degree by renewable energy. I dream of parking lots covered with solar panels, of windmills spinning across the plains. God willing, I have another 30 or 40 years left. I'm still hopeful.