DS9: Heart of Stone

[Yukaphile]

1) Very true, but it's something. Similar to how after WWII, women left the kitchen in droves and never went back.

2) I think the implication of the episode is that Rom is a nice guy who will help to further reform the Ferengi. That's the implication of the last Ferengi episode. I don't wanna diminish the pain and suffering of women's rights and women's struggles against sexual harassment and the patriarchy, it's just I'm looking at it narratively, and the Ferengi are just such a farcical race that it really is easy to think they could be guided to enlightenment in just a few years, especially since in-canon it had happened to humans in under 50 years. Recall, also, what Quark said about how humans sunk to depths that no Ferengi sank to. And I have to agree.

[clearspira]

1) Very true, but it's something. Similar to how after WWII, women left the kitchen in droves and never went back.

2) I think the implication of the episode is that Rom is a nice guy who will help to further reform the Ferengi. That's the implication of the last Ferengi episode. I don't wanna diminish the pain and suffering of women's rights and women's struggles against sexual harassment and the patriarchy, it's just I'm looking at it narratively, and the Ferengi are just such a farcical race that it really is easy to think they could be guided to enlightenment in just a few years, especially since in-canon it had happened to humans in under 50 years. Recall, also, what Quark said about how humans sunk to depths that no Ferengi sank to. And I have to agree.

I definitely agree that both the Federation and the Ferengi have very badly written histories. I'm always reminded of Chuck's review of ''Rogue Planet'' where he points out how we in the 21st century are a race of people so at odds with how human beings should be treated that the idea that we would come together as a whole to decide all of these other things within a few years is completely unbelievable. A good portion of the people alive in 2063 have already been born lets not forget.

[Yukaphile]

Yup. That was a pretty good review. It also puts me in mind, as much as they've fallen to the dark side, of Channel Awesome's Nostalgia Critic and his 2010 review of the film Lost in Space, how in that movie world peace somehow became a thing before 2058, and then... well, there you go, now we got terrorists, so... what the hell?

[PerrySimm]

I agree with SF Debris on this one. When I watch this episode, I skip the Odo/Kira stuff and just watch the Nog plot.

I did like Odo/Kira once they became a couple, but I didn’t like any of the build up.

As for Nog, I like that they sort of switched expectations with him and Jake. In joining Starfleet, Nog seemed to become more important to the show than Jake ever was. Though I have to admit the “I don’t wanna end up like my father“ bit is pretty funny now that we know what becomes of Rom.

This episode must get a 4 based on a score of 8 for the Nog half

The other half was junk - a so-called "A plot" that relies on some pretty out-there assumptions about our characters. The entire Sanders scheme really belongs in the Movie Villain Master Plan thread. If Odo hadn't done anything more than run off the Raider and escort the Lissepians to port, the whole thing would have just fizzled out!

And what if, during all the initial fuss, Odo managed to shoot Sanders out of the sky? "Ape shall not kill ape" - but fooling Ape into thinking you're not Ape and letting them shoot at you is OK? Shooting back at the fooled Ape is OK, as long as you mean to miss?

What exactly convinced The Great Link that this plan was a good idea and based on correct assumptions? Are Changelings able to tell when another Changeling is in love with a Solid? Just by looking and talking? Remember that at this point, Odo hasn't linked yet!

Is it just master-level stupidity/arrogance/jealousy? Sanders sees Odo and Kira arrive and leave together, ergo Odo/Kira is not just for sure a thing, but the ONLY thing tying Odo to DS9?

Edit: Canonicity

[bronnt]

I've been rewatching some TNG lately, and this episode is a good example of the difference between DS9 and TNG that makes DS9 work.

One of the last episodes I watched was "In Theory," which is the story in which Data starts a relationship with a junior lieutenant. That was the story that Ron Moore and Joe Menosky actually cared about, but they were told they had to have a B-plot. So they tacked on a secondary plot involving a dark matter nebula that doesn't matter.

This episode of DS9 also has an A-plot and a B-plot, but they both matter. Even if one of them is kind of boring, it's still part of the ongoing plot arc, and the twist where this actually turns out to be the female Changeling is pretty good the first time you see it. Both plots tie into ongoing plot and character arcs.

Are Changelings able to tell when another Changeling is in love with a Solid? Just by looking and talking? Remember that at this point, Odo hasn't linked yet!

There was a brief link at the end of "The Search, Part II," so you could infer that she learned it from that. He wasn't in "The Great Link," but this changeling did link with him.

And I think the reveal actually works on first viewing. You're right about it being an excessively convoluted plan once you stop and think about it, though.

[Mickey_Rat15]

Would the gun have had any effect on Sanders? It could not cut through the "crystal" when "Kira" was trapped in it, but the crystal also has to be part of Sander's body. Does all Sander's need to do to become invulnerable is take the form of the crystal?

I like how what Sisko as Nog's competency test is something that should be right in any Ferengi that is worth his salt's wheelhouse, logistics management. Even so, I am still not sure how Nog, who had an indifferent attitude, at best, to scholarship passes an exam that a kid who accidently creates sentient nanites and pocket realities had problems with.

[Madner Kami]

Would the gun have had any effect on Sanders? It could not cut through the "crystal" when "Kira" was trapped in it, but the crystal also has to be part of Sander's body. Does all Sander's need to do to become invulnerable is take the form of the crystal?

Possibly. I mean, Changelings can change in a way that makes them virtually indistinguishable from an object they morph into, even when scanned extensively. It seems reasonable, that they actually take on physical properties of the matter they change into (for example, it's clear that their mass changes along their transformation, otherwise Odo would weight as much as a falcon or the falcon as much as Odo, which would be obviously silly and easy to exploit in terms of detection). On the other hand, the Dominion has some quite nifty tech on hand. A hidden personal force-field protecting one of the most valuable assets of the Dominion is hardly out of question.

I like how what Sisko as Nog's competency test is something that should be right in any Ferengi that is worth his salt's wheelhouse, logistics management. Even so, I am still not sure how Nog, who had an indifferent attitude, at best, to scholarship passes an exam that a kid who accidently creates sentient nanites and pocket realities had problems with.

You can be highly intelligent and still completely fail at being a genius in school, precisely because you are so highly intelligent. Nothing in the story really hints at Nog being dumb, he's just bored with school and doesn't take it serious early on, which is something that many a bright people can attest to being the case.

[Yukaphile]

I suspect the Female Changeling (yeah, going to take that over Sanders, thanks, cuz every time I hear that, I think Senator Sanders, last thing I want on my mind) just set it to a low-level stun. Not a high-level kill blast like what killed Mirror Odo.

[BlackoutCreature2]

Would the gun have had any effect on Sanders? It could not cut through the "crystal" when "Kira" was trapped in it, but the crystal also has to be part of Sander's body. Does all Sander's need to do to become invulnerable is take the form of the crystal?

The few times we've seen phaser vs. Changeling the phaser is pretty definitely the winner. I recall in DS9's original mirror universe episode Mirror Odo looked like a kielbasa that was kept in the microwave too long when he got shot.

It might be a settings issue in this episode. They kept it fairly low when trying to break away the crystal so that they also wouldn't accidentally hurt "Kira". In the end when Odo finally knows what he's dealing with he's probably ready to turn the knob up the eleven and let the goo fall where it may.

I like how what Sisko as Nog's competency test is something that should be right in any Ferengi that is worth his salt's wheelhouse, logistics management. Even so, I am still not sure how Nog, who had an indifferent attitude, at best, to scholarship passes an exam that a kid who accidently creates sentient nanites and pocket realities had problems with.

I imagine Nog and Wesley took different tests. Wesley, even by the standards of the 24th century, was considered a super genius. If even he had that much trouble with the standard entrance exam, then Starfleet would start having some major staffing issues. Wesley probably took a science focused test aimed at more advanced students that Starfleet would probably like to fast track to prominent postings. Nog probably took a more rank and file exam with an engineering focus.

And I would like to say I can see there being different types and levels of distress signals. There could be a "we're fine and have supplies to last awhile but could really use a lift" signal, there's the "we have injured people that need immediate medical aid" signal, there's the "we're ok but our supplies are running low and we're gonna be starving in a couple of days" signal, there's the "we're ok now but there is a potential threat from hostile forces wanting to kill us" signal, etc. People aren't just gonna be out there looking to answer distress calls, they have their own duties and responsibilities. When they get a distress signal they need to know if they can swing by and pick these people up when they're done with what they're doing, or if they need to drop everything and head there right now to save lives.

[Durandal_1707]

Would the gun have had any effect on Sanders? It could not cut through the "crystal" when "Kira" was trapped in it, but the crystal also has to be part of Sander's body. Does all Sander's need to do to become invulnerable is take the form of the crystal?

The few times we've seen phaser vs. Changeling the phaser is pretty definitely the winner. I recall in DS9's original mirror universe episode Mirror Odo looked like a kielbasa that was kept in the microwave too long when he got shot.

Mirror Odo's XP score was really low, though. The Martok Changeling, who presumably had a lot more levels in Changeling than Odo did, took a whole room full of disruptors to take down, and even then it took like ten straight seconds of continuous fire. The FC is fine here.

Hell, the phaser she's using might not even be real. She might be generating it too.