Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooting

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I loathe the low level, unapologetically mean-spirited level of discourse that Trump has propagated (although he's far from the sole perpetrator), but what exactly is the evidence that Trump is a sine qua non cause here? A vile, hateful person has apparently spent years raving against Jews on social media, voices his opposition to Trump's "pro-Jew" policies, and joins the lengthening parade of mass shooters that the U.S. has dealt with for the past twenty or fifty years (depending on whether you want to draw the line at Columbine or Charles Whitman). Where is the connection that shows that Trump caused it? The way people have been talking, you'd think that everyone actually got along before 2016.

If you want to talk about Trump and Cesar Sayoc, I think there's a much more obvious association in that case. Even so, we're still talking about a crackpot with a pretty long criminal history and bomb threats going back to 2002.

Meanwhile, there is something wrong with the U.S., and it's simultaneously sickening and disheartening. Various factors can be debated, but the full explanation for shootings like this will be debated for years to come.

[Yukaphile]

It's not just him. I felt people like Sanders were legitimizing a very toxic discourse as well, and promoting hypocrisy and dishonesty. Like promising to stick to the issues, run a clean campaign - and then as he's down hundreds of delegates, he's snarling spit and venom about what an evil corporate whore his opponent is or encouraging his little monsters to unleash all holy hell in his name as well as contradicting himself more than once and never seeming to be aware of that. It really isn't about Trump, so much as how he's a lightning-rod for the poison that's infecting our political discussion. And it's very painful to watch unfold.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I don't disagree, and I wish that public figures in general felt a greater sense of responsibility for the effect their words and actions have upon public discourse, and the broader, indeterminable effect their words and actions might have on American culture. It's a bit of a chicken and the egg thing as well.

But then there's all the messy issues of individual responsibility, free speech, and so on. A lot of libertarian types feel that any speech that doesn't specifically encourage/incite violence should not be blamed for the choices of a deranged, violent individual. That's a nice ideal, but it's a bit of a simplification. On the other hand, if you don't operate by that standard, then you open up another can of worms regarding censorship and whatnot. If we blame the rhetoric of politicians, what about violence in the media and entertainment?

So yeah, to me it's a tough, murky issue. Ultimately, I think Trump's election was more symptom than cause, but that the tone of Trump's rhetoric will have long-term unpleasant (and unforeseeable) repercussions for the Republican Party and America as a whole.

[Madner Kami]

What I think is that it is extremely convenient that we have a Trump blamed shooting and a Trump blamed double presidential assassination attempt both in the same week and just before an election. Just saying.

I don't get it.

Well, what are you trying to say? The way it reads, you suspect some sort of conspiracy, thus my reaction to it.

[Yukaphile]

Clearspira is probably like many other right-wingers who think the Democrats set this all up. Bombing ourselves to rally the base. Even though all indications point to the GOP being the ones in panic mode, and not the Democrats.

[sayla0079]

Is it me or have Hate crimes gone up alot since trump took office?

[Worffan101]

I hope the scumbag who did this rots.

The worst part, in my eyes, is that he was motivated by hatred of kindness. His social media's filled with rants about Jewish charities helping immigrants who were separated from their families by Twitler, which makes me think this is more than just another Nazi doing something evil. This guy was so much of a hardcore Nazi that he thought TRUMP wasn't pro-Nazi enough, and he killed these people for being kind.

That just...the fundamental wrongness of that clashes with my core belief system to a degree that just makes me physically ill.

Doesn't help that Twitler decided to hold another of his hate rallies the day after the attack, because he has no compassion, but honestly I kind of shoulda expected that from him.

[Yukaphile]

I've had similar feelings for others. He'll probably be charged with a hate crime. Does the state have a death penalty? Even if not, he'll get life. But even so, nothing you can do. He'll get his. That's more than I can say for many others that are just as guilty.

[G-Man]

For those of you asking where the information about Bowers hating Trump came from, this is an archive of some of Robert Bowers' Gab posts (warning, it is very offensive and NSFW):
https://archive.fo/k63LE
(btw, I am NOT the G-Man in the link)
He not only hates Jews, and Trump, but also thinks that QAnon is a double agent, so he is someone that a lot of conspiracy theorists would consider a wacko.

The worst part, in my eyes, is that he was motivated by hatred of kindness. His social media's filled with rants about Jewish charities helping immigrants who were separated from their families by Twitler, which makes me think this is more than just another Nazi doing something evil. This guy was so much of a hardcore Nazi that he thought TRUMP wasn't pro-Nazi enough, and he killed these people for being kind.

Forgetting Bowers for a minute, I think it is a little bit disingenuous to suggest that the issue of the separated families is merely "kindness" vs. "meanness."

If you want to blame someone for the family separations, blame Judge Dolly Gee for ruling that kids with parents are not allowed to be detained for more than 20 days. The effect of this ruling is that if you do not separate kids from the adults who come with them, anyone coming across the border with kids who is from any country other than Mexico gets released into the country with a court summons to appear at their immigration hearings. A whopping 84% of these sorts of illegal aliens do not show up to their final court hearing if they are ordered deported.

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/br ... se-hearing

In other words, not separating the kids is basically like letting someone out of jail on their own recognizance when they only have a 5/6 chance of showing up for trial and it also sends a message that if you want to get into the country, bring a kid with you and you will be released. (There is also the problem that merely claiming asylum often is enough to get you released, even though the vast majority of asylum claims from many Central American countries get rejected and a lot of people claiming a need for asylum then do not bother to go to the next steps - essentially, saying a few "magic words" gets you across the border, making it much harder to deport you, and bad-faith false asylum claims are an easy way for illegal aliens to make it past the Border Patrol.

The media has very much obscured this fact, or the very low rate of showing up to court for people under these circumstances. Not surprisingly, in the past few years after Dolly Gee's ruling, illegal aliens have started bringing kids with them very frequently.

Virtually none on the left who got angry about the family separations actually offered any solution other than "go back to catch-and-release," which is not an effective policy if you actually care about the U.S. being able to determine whom it wishes to let in to the country and whom it wishes not to let in. So there are legitimate reasons to think that HIAS and other groups who opposed Trump's border policies were pursuing goals that were harmful to the U.S. - the problem with Bowers was expanding that disagreement into a genocidal hatred, and actually carrying out that hatred.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

What I think is that it is extremely convenient that we have a Trump blamed shooting and a Trump blamed double presidential assassination attempt both in the same week and just before an election. Just saying.

Must be super convenient for the grieving families of those 11 people and the millions of other jewish people across the nation who got a fresh reminder of how much upstanding americans want them dead.

Oh right. They didn't really get shot did they? The bombs were fake, the synagogue "shooting" victims were probably crisis actors, and it was all cooked up in a child prostitute ring in the basement of a pizza place.

It's really amazing isn't it, the dramatic lengths to which the Democrats will go to rile up their base? How much they lie? How much they push their propaganda? It's amazing they don't already control the senate, the executive branch, and the supreme court with all these false flag operations they are doing to sway the american people.

Thank goodness for level-headed skeptics like you.