DS9: Heart of Stone

[Yukaphile]

Okay, listen... that's because it's early TNG, and I tend to disregard early TNG because the quality is so bad. Should we treat the TNG crew the same as they got to be later on? No. They changed, the same way the Ferengi changed by the time DS9 came around. Their navy, space forces? Gone. I'd be shocked if they had 'em when DS9 really got swinging.

[Fianna]

By the DS9 era, the Ferengi aren't considered a power to be reckoned with. When the Dominion invades the Alpha Quadrant, they take extensive measures to ensure the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans, and the Cardassians won't be able to stand against them, but such measures don't seem to be considered necessary for dealing with the Ferengi.

If we don't see Ferengi getting involved in wars or other violent conflicts, you can chalk it up to them knowing they'd get their asses kicked if they tried.

[Yukaphile]

Hell, recall "The Magnificent Ferengi." The so and so battle. The only battle in Ferengi history, where they got their asses kicked. Yeah, this is clearly a retcon. So I stand by my statement that I agree with Chuck. I can't see Ferengi behaving as badly as us at our worst, even with regards to racism and sexism, though it is definitely awful and must be reformed, which I'm not dismissing, all right? No wonder poor Chuck had to throw that in.

[clearspira]

Okay, listen... that's because it's early TNG, and I tend to disregard early TNG because the quality is so bad. Should we treat the TNG crew the same as they got to be later on? No. They changed, the same way the Ferengi changed by the time DS9 came around. Their navy, space forces? Gone. I'd be shocked if they had 'em when DS9 really got swinging.

The last time we definitively saw their navy to my knowledge was in season 7 of TNG where Daimon Bok tries to convince Picard he has a son - by murdering an innocent man. Seeing as Worf joins at the start of season 4 of DS9, we know season 7 of TNG to be the latter half season 3 of DS9.

We could also potentially count those Ferengi in season 6 of Voyager that wanted to murder Seven of Nine for her nanoprobes as they also had a Marauder. And this comes long after DS9 had come to an end.

[Yukaphile]

Again, does that count? That's Season 7, where they ran out of ideas. And sure, the Ferengi might have larger ships. Doesn't make them powerhouses. This is consistent throughout late Trek. That they're a pathetic joke of a race. Not warriors. Again...

QUARK: No one's hiding and no one's escaping, and no one's surrendering. What's wrong with you people? Have you forgotten the Battle of Prexnak?
ROM: Who could forget the most important battle in Ferengi history?
QUARK: Ten Ferengi stood alone against two hundred and seventy three Lytasians.
GAILA: As I recall, all ten Ferengi were slaughtered.

[Deledrius]

Again, does that count? That's Season 7, where they ran out of ideas.

It happened. It counts.

If every counter-fact to your argument is met with an exception or dismissal, there's no point in even have this discussion. You already have a conclusion, and you'll find facts that fit it and ignore any that don't.

This has become a "No True Ferengi" line of reasoning.

[Yukaphile]

They have a navy. Doesn't really mean it's a powerhouse. That interpretation was in Season 2, not Season 7, wasn't it? Then yes, it's still a retcon.

[clearspira]

They have a navy. Doesn't really mean it's a powerhouse. That interpretation was in Season 2, not Season 7, wasn't it? Then yes, it's still a retcon.

That's not how canon works. You can't just say ''oh, that was season 7 so bugger it.'' And yeah, it may not be a powerhouse, but i've still presented you with a late Trek example of the Ferengi navy in action as well as a Ferengi willing to personally dirty his hands with murder and kidnapping.
And I honestly don't see how ''powerhouse in comparison to the other great powers of the galaxy'' actually means much in this context. The British military is weak as hell compared to America, China and Russia, and yet no one could look at our aircraft carrier taking to the seas and think ''ooh, they're a people not willing to fight a war themselves if they need to.''

[Yukaphile]

I just still can't see them being as bad as us at our worst, sorry, because I've read about it. Show me one example of Ferengi behaving that way. Like, at all.

[TrueMetis]

Well, let's look at what Chuck says from another review. At their hearts, they don't have the killing instinct. They're businessmen. Perhaps even corrupt, evil businessmen - you know, like Fox News? - but businessmen nevertheless. And businessmen are about acquiring profit and expanding their pleasure. They don't just give in to sadistic urges just because they can the way it seems like human beings have. Why doubt Quark's word? He flat-out says they haven't waged war, enslaved, or murdered huge populations. So I can't see them doing that, regardless.

Cause Quark's a liar? I mean you just said they were like Fox news. So like Fox news listen to what they say, and assume the opposite is true. They claim they haven't waged war? They've waged many wars, they claim no slaves? Lots of slave. No genocide? Lot's of genocide.