DS9: Heart of Stone

[clearspira]

Um... that's at odds with earlier on, when the Ferengi were an aggressive naval power. Even if they lost, you don't go from being a semi-respectable navy to being losers so horrible you're a joke and can't ever win. Even the losers wouldn't rewrite their own history to make themselves look that bad.

I was referring to the claim of the lack of slavery, concentration camps etc. His slavery claim for example is provable rubbish because we see it in Enterprise, and yet, if we are to take him at his word, than something has happened in the meantime that allows him to ignore the fact that T'Pol and Hoshi were nearly sold off to be raped by the three invading Ferengi. Or I'm going to hazard a guess here, he thinks that the Ferengi have never actually been slavers because they are technically not Ferengi slave camps that they are selling slaves to, they are just the middle men. Mental gymnastics are also a universal trait.

And as we've already established, I don't believe that the Ferengi military is a joke. I think its smaller, nothing else. I think the mistake you are making is basing too much on too few people. You see Quark, Rom and Nog and think that they must be the norm. And you are not alone in this: people for years made judgements on how ''real Vulcans'' should behave based on Spock, and yet with a few exceptions such as Tuvok and Saavik, most Vulcans are up their own backsides, racist, and have a very self-serving definition of logic. ''Ooh, that was just what Enterprise and DS9 did to them'' I hear someone cry. Yeah, sorry, not how canon works.

[Yukaphile]

Okay, point taken. Though this IS Enterprise, remember, which as Chuck noted, is like bringing a dildo to a knife fight.

That's because it's inconsistent! Can't you see that?! You think Enterprise Vulcans are the norm? OMFG GTFO! There are bound to be inconsistencies in a decades-spanning franchise with hundreds of footage hours. So canon in this case is very loose. Hell, take DS9. Well known for its consistency. Weyoun says the Dominion has stood for 2,000 years, and then hasn't surrendered in 10,000 years. How does that work? The Vulcans, like the Ferengi, went through creative shifts. Some better, some worse. If you think the Ferengi of "The Last Outpost" are the same as those in episodes like "Family Business" or "Ferengi Love Songs," then you're just being stubborn. It's Flanderization.

[TrueMetis]

Um... that's at odds with earlier on, when the Ferengi were an aggressive naval power. Even if they lost, you don't go from being a semi-respectable navy to being losers so horrible you're a joke and can't ever win. Even the losers wouldn't rewrite their own history to make themselves look that bad.

France was, and still is, a respectable naval and military power. People still act like it's a joke. Part of that is going from one of the top three to one among dozens. Part of that is the US is an asshole and wants to downplay the fact that without France they wouldn't exist.

The Ferengi may have had, and may still have, a semi-respectable navy. But in an era of significant military buildup all it would take is staying stagnant to go from being perceived as a credible threat to being seen as a joke. Whether that's true or not. The Ferengi navy is semi-respectable when the Federations high ranking officers can go around saying shit like "combat is a minor province in the field of a starship captain" not so much when that Federation is taking on the Borg and the Dominion. And the size of the Ferengi navy need not change in the slightest.

[Yukaphile]

People don't go so far as to literally say France only had one battle in its whole history, in which they lost, like six Frenchmen to 1,000 Germans or Russians or Americans or whatever. Or Brits.

[Rocketboy1313]

What the hell did this thread turn into?
What point are you all trying to make to one another?

[Yukaphile]

I don't understand. It's been derailed pretty hard, so... I'm just going to shut up. Carry on, men.

[TrueMetis]

People don't go so far as to literally say France only had one battle in its whole history, in which they lost, like six Frenchmen to 1,000 Germans or Russians or Americans or whatever. Or Brits.

I'm sorry when did they say they only had one battle in history? I assume you're referring to the Battle of Prexnak but they call it the most important battle, which in and of itself implies there are other battles to compare it to in order to make that claim. And we also get not one bit of detail about it. For all we know it's their equivalent to Thermopylae, Dunkirk, Wizna, or Hill 677.

Like lets re-write what was said in the episode using Thermopylae instead.

Quark : No one's hiding and no one's escaping and no one's surrendering! What's wrong with you people? Have you forgotten the Battle of Thermopylae?

Rom : Who could forget the most important battle in Spartan history?

Quark : 300 Spartans stood alone against 300000 Persians.

Gaila : As I recall, all 300 Spartans were slaughtered.

In fact this is a great example of why you shouldn't assume Quark is either telling the truth, or even really knows the truth. Because the above is exactly the type of thing I've heard from people who don't really understand military history, and why would Quark understand military history? He runs a bar.

So claiming any given battle was "the most important" is a incredibly difficult task. Especially because people often over inflate the importance of battles. Was Thermopylae the most important battle in Spartan history? Fuck no but you'd never know that from how people talk about it. It also is a good example of idealized story vs the truth, Sparta did not fight alone at Thermopylae. But no one ever seem to talk about the Thespians, Helots, and Thebans that were there. Finally all of them dying doesn't tell as anything about the effect it had on the greater war. Thermopylae was a strategic and tactical loss for the Greeks, but the rearguard action allowing for a portion of the force to escape and the morale boost the story gave likely helped lead to the latter Greek Victories.

So was Prexnak really the most important battle in Ferengi history? No idea.
Was it really 10 Ferengi vs 273 Lytasians? No idea.
Was it a complete loss, or even a loss at all, like Gaila's line implies? Again no idea. Seriously it's entirely possible they won that battle, because while they died those 10 managed to do whatever it was they meant to do. Shit if we assume Quark is right, as you seem want to do, isn't it far more likely that since this is the most important battle in Ferengi history they won that battle and that battle won them the war?

[Yukaphile]

Okay, you put a great face on that. I'll concede to the greater argument here. Thanks for all the detail. Still, shutting up, since this is off topic.

[cdrood]

One could argue is that in referring to slavery, Quark is referring to Ferengi enslaving their own species. He may consider that something different. However, the thing about Quark, Rom, and Nog (at least at the beginning) is they are among the few civilians we see as regular characters on Star Trek. Their viewpoint is likely to be different from the early military Ferengi we saw.

[RobbyB1982]

I always figured the early Ferengi appearances were when they had just started to meet the Federation, and didn't know what to make of them, since they were so different and claimed to not be interested in money. So they sent out the warships, spread rumors of being a powerhouse fleet, and had their guys act like angry violent gerbils to see how they were treated by the hoomahns.

And then within a couple years it became clear that yes, the federation actually meant it's nonsense, and they could do business with these people and started sending their actual representatives out.

Only the humans had this problem at the time, the Cardassians and the like had already been dealing with them for years... but even Quark on Terok Nor was a nastier darker person, so...