DS9 "The Reckoning"

[Durandal_1707]

They made the paghwraiths one of the two major story arcs of the last two seasons (and the last one to be actually resolved in the finale), and the paghwraiths' thing is, basically, possessing people, so I'm gonna go with "Yes."

[Yukaphile]

So the conclusion is yes, they should have thought this through more.

[Darth Wedgius]

It would have been nice to get some idea to the motivations of the Pagh Wraiths. Especially if (which isn't necessarily a given) they can see the past, present, and future, and know that they'll lose.

[Eishtmo]

Perhaps that is the motivation. Nothing drives someone to try to win than telling them they never will.

[turbo_sailor67]

I think this is one of the reasons its hard to write stories with really powerful creatures or all powerful entities that are suppose to be good but don't really intervene. They could solve all the problems the heroes face and save lives and stop evil but they don't and there is never a really good reason for it. It isn't just with DS9 but with other shows and movies. It usually makes them look like assholes who can't be bothered of there isn't a good reason stated by the writers other than well it does take the drama out if they do solve all the problems.

Yeah, trying to depict beings that are both omnipotent and benevolent in fiction amounts to trying to solve the theological problem of evil, which philosophers have been arguing over for many centuries without any definitive resolution. Fiction certainly isn't going to come up with an easy answer.

You see this problem a lot with amateur or hack writers, where they establish a hero or villain with powers so extreme that they should either win instantly, never be defeated, or at minimum should be doing a hell of a lot more than they currently are. Rules and limitations need to be established early that state why they do not do these things. And as stated above, the Prophets for the first five seasons did have rules but somewhere along the line they were thrown out.

It is also important that you do not go to far the other way however lest we lose audience sympathy. The Ancients from Stargate have a Prime Directive that makes the Federation's look the moral code of the Conquistadors.

I can see how this episode using the prophets would be difficult for this episode and keeping consistent with how they were previously. Perhaps because going by my memory, there seems to be a lot of space between the last prophets heavy episode and this one. That's in my memory anyway; their presence in the pilot episodes really stands out but after that I don't really recall any episodes where they feature heavily. Perhaps its because of that, so when this episode comes up I like it better. Plus the first episode that we are introduced to the Pah-wraiths with Keiko coming back on the ship but not-Keiko is for me the creepiest episode of Trek there is.

They didn't have to be the polar opposite of the Prophets, it could have been some other entity that some of the Bajoran's worshiped in the past I mean there's that terrible episode where Chief O'Brien is on that part of Bajor where he has to tell a story to focus all of the Bajoran's ki to repel that cloud monster thing. So there are other parts of Bajor where they don't all worship or pay reverence to the Prophets.

Maybe the most difficult part of doing the Prophets was as pointed out the whole not in sync with how time works for everyone else. It is an enjoyable episode to me, and it has some interesting ideas but I can see how it doesn't fit in perfectly with what's previously established. Part of the difficulty of having multiple different writers on the show.

It didn't do as bad a job I think as B5 did with the Shadows and whatever Kosh is I forget but, there's that awesome moment where Sheridan gets his fears confirmed and jump ahead to that Lorien character and then the shadows are de-fanged and yeah it just didn't feel like all it was building up to be. That probably belongs on the B5 section but because DS9 and B5 share similar origin concepts and have running parallels I added that on here.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

but if that's what you meant... well normally I would say that's one of the most bigoted things I have heard recently but compared to something else I heard this week it doesn't even hold a candle. I was a professor talking about what happened during one of his lectures. He was discussing paintings of Jews during the middle ages around the time Europe decided Rome was cool so they didn't want to blame them for the death of Jesus anymore. He was going over a painting of Jesus being arrested in which the Roman soldiers were depicted as extremely anti Semitic stereotypes (complete with weird bone weapons with nails stuck in them) when a woman stood up in his class and angrily shouted that she didn't know where he was going with this because the Jews are like that and the quote a passage from a mistranslated version of the bible about the Jews wanting to murder Jesus. I shared that story cause why should I suffer in revulsion alone.

[G-Man]

well normally I would say that's one of the most bigoted things I have heard recently but compared to something else I heard this week it doesn't even hold a candle. I was a professor talking about what happened during one of his lectures. He was discussing paintings of Jews during the middle ages around the time Europe decided Rome was cool so they didn't want to blame them for the death of Jesus anymore. He was going over a painting of Jesus being arrested in which the Roman soldiers were depicted as extremely anti Semitic stereotypes (complete with weird bone weapons with nails stuck in them) when a woman stood up in his class and angrily shouted that she didn't know where he was going with this because the Jews are like that and the quote a passage from a mistranslated version of the bible about the Jews wanting to murder Jesus. I shared that story cause why should I suffer in revulsion alone.

You were just looking for an opportunity to put that story in there, weren't you?

[CareerKnight]

You were just looking for an opportunity to put that story in there, weren't you?

Not really, I tend to be fairly stream of consciousness with these post so I was going to say it was pretty bigoted but then I immediately remembered that story. I did leave out the end of the story though. She disappeared from the class after that and then about a month later she shows up in the Professor's office with a minor question about an assigned paper and just as she was about to leave she turned around and said "You know I wasn't talking about you, right?" to which the Professor thought "Thanks, I feel so much better. You only meant my parents or grandparents or my friends growing up, or my kid but not me so that's fine.". I apologize if I eroded your faith in humanity. I feel we are good and decent overall but capable of tremendous evil and stupidity.

Hey, the wiki said they wanted Bashir to be super green, so that he could grow as a character. So it was a deliberate choice. You're destroying your own argument there by thinking Season 1 Bashir was bad. It was meant to show how far he'd come.

Apologize for the late replies but here we go. I was not referring to Bashir being green when he came on board. I was referring to him being insufferable and constantly hitting on Dax despite her showing zero interest and he didn't gradually shift away from this, its rather an abrupt change with no real in-story impetus so you can't chalk it up to a planned character arc. But hey at least credit where it is due they responded to the audiences dislike of the character and changed him for the better, on Voyager they just stayed the course on Neelix.

That this was also the 1990s. It might as well have been the Dark Ages with regards to women's rights and our social awakening.

As someone who is aware of women's rights throughout history never use this hyperbole with me again. This is as bullcrap as saying a long hours minimum wage job might as well be slavery. Its incredibly inaccurate and insulting to the memory and legacy of those who actually went through it.

Here's the transcript.

I know you consider this an knockout blow for your argument but nothing said actually contradicts the alternative explanation I put forward because even with that Sisko still has plenty of reasons to not be happy about it. He has recently found out that the woman (I can't remember her name) he thought was his mother wasn't and his actual mother was inhabited by a prophet who came to Earth to make sure he was born. He probably would have seemed just as uncomfortable with the situation if the Prophet had somehow become a human without possessing anyone and then later left to go back to being a Prophet after his birth. For her part of the conversation, his mother feels no need to make him feel better about any of this or justify her actions beyond "The Sisko is necessary", though the Prophets never seem to like giving explanations (I guess explaining is a foreign concept to non-linear beings).

[Yukaphile]

Stop parroting Chuck's views and think for yourself. It flat-out says on the wiki they wanted Bashir to be somewhat of a jerk in Season 1 so that he could then be "brought down," whatever that means. That's my feeling, they wanted him to grow as a character. And he does.

It's still happening to this day, isn't it? Even certain topics being discussed regarding women's rights and women's suffering and the way patriarchy and war hurts them that it doesn't hurt men... is still being hampered somewhat by patriarchy, by our social limitations. It's really as if common sense isn't as common as people make it out to be. And yeah, the 1990s was like a dark ages for gay rights, or trans rights. I know people in the LGBT community who would agree. Hell, George Carlin ten years ago was fat shaming on stage and got huge laughs from his crowd. You think that would fly today? Not that I'm not dismissing the 1990s. I miss the 1990s. I want to go back to the 1990s. Regardless, I can at least admit that it was hyperbole, so if that offends you, then I'm sorry. But it was nevertheless a harder time for women and the LGBT community compared to the discussions we got going today. That's how I see it. And if you wanna fight me on this, then go ahead. I'll fight you right back.

I forgot what the original argument and the transcript even was, so... can't even comment on this. Doesn't help that you didn't include it in your quotes for, um... reasons?

[Durandal_1707]

I think both of you should listen to the good doctor: