Babylon 5: Believers

[Wargriffin]

Certain sects of Judaism believed in reincarnation

[Beastro]

It's like putting the 4th Crusade back to back with Jesus's teachings.

~~~

[Yukaphile]

Fixed it for me?

[Beastro]

For those pro-life, its about the inherent soul of humanity, its human at conception, imbued with some James Brown at the get go that separates human kind from animals.

There's also that we don't know when exactly "a person becomes a person" or even largely what that means beyond the assumed development of consciousness (I'm becoming more ambivalent over the primacy of consciousness myself given my increasing dislike over the realization that it is viewed as the end all be all of a person when it's increasingly apparent to me that isn't the case).

Until such a point a found and fixed, there's a massive grey area and one that requires no religious beliefs.

As for the episode, it's not simply too heavy handed but badly handled from the get go. I don't know how much JMS went into it with Star Trek in mind, but it comes off just as bad as the worst of Trek's sanctimonious moments, and I happen to agree with Franklin.

In the end though the way he and the dad act I just wish the episode had ended with both being vented into space.

Fixed it for me?

This forum could use a hug smilie.

Honestly

JMS should have had the kid kill himself to really fuck over morally superior Franklin.

No, that's too soft. Have him overrule the parents, administer his treatment and then find he killed the killed the kid because the conclusions he based it upon were mistaken, but as a result of the kids death he's 99% sure now he could cure another of the alien race with the affliction.

The big problem today with science that leaves so many shrugging their shoulders at it is that surety being propounded only for things to change. Like so many things in life, science and religion work best with a good dose of humility and honesty.

[Wargriffin]

That sounds like a typical Franklin story...


My moral superiority killed someone while also breaking about a third of my medical vows

[Beastro]

Imagine if we got some time displaced Aztecs on B5 which wanted to sacrifice people so the world would not end. Would this be acceptable? They have their convictions and are motivated by them and feel that by smearing blood onto statues is the best course of actions.

This is the interesting thing about getting into the basal level of belief systems regardless of one's stated religious beliefs.

For example, not even the Soul Hunters belief in an afterlife or reincarnation, unlike anyone on this planet would assume if smoething like a soul would be proven to exist

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that, because if I recall correctly that is exactly what some religions believe. IIRC, in Judaism there is no promise of eternal life or heaven, and one valid interpretation of the classic "dust to dust" quote in the bible (in that religion) is that when you die, that's it, you cease to be.

That's not quite right; Judaism has the concept of Sheol, doesn't it? There's even a passage in 1 Samuel where Saul goes to Endor to get a medium to call Samuel's spirit so he can ask him for advice (Samuel, of course, just gets pissed off at being bothered. Saul should have found someone less annoying than an Ewok to do it. Oh well, live and learn).

Oh, Judaism definitely has a concept of a soul, but the point is that it isn't necessarily immortal. There definitely isn't a Christian-like promise of going to heaven after death in Judaism, I'm certain of that. You will find biblical characters from the Old Testament/Tanakh who are stated to have been lifted into heaven, but they are always presented as the exception, not the rule.

Sheol simply means the grave. Even if it taken as a given of an afterlife it didn't mean heaven as we know it.

T'was one of the major sticking points between the Sadducees and Pharisees, of which the latter aligned more along with Christian teachings and why Judaism since then has mostly taken the Pharisees position given that they were the only ones that managed to survive for long after the Great Revolt. And that, in that eternally lovely sectarian way, the groups with most in common had the widest gulfs due to their similarities, which is part of why Judaism and Christianity remain in constant, incompatible tension with one another beyond the simply issue of Christ being the Messiah or not.

Certain sects of Judaism believed in reincarnation

Not sect, at least as far as they're known from a Western Christian denomination way, just in the Kabbalah and it's history of having some involved in it take it as their own personal outlook, which is itself in keeping with interest in the Kabbalah and it's oddities.

Long story short, debate and interpretation are big in Judaism, since they effectively lack a priesthood. Such was the way in Christianity, but like with so many things before the era, it was eclipsed in most people's minds by the Reformation and Counter Reformation.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

That sounds like a typical Franklin story...


My moral superiority killed someone while also breaking about a third of my medical vows

His real flaw is he thinks that, because he can heal patients physically, he can solve all their problems. Like in Late Delivery from Avalon where, despite having no apparent psychological training, he went "I'll just cure a traumatized veteran's delusion by confronting him with PROOF that his delusion is wrong! I'm totally sure that mental illness can be fixed with rational argument!"

He can't cure insanity. He can't cure zealoutry. He can fix a broken leg, clear up an air bladder infection, even cure a fatal previously-incurable plague, but he doesn't understand the things he can't fix.

[Imperator-zor]

That sounds like a typical Franklin story...


My moral superiority killed someone while also breaking about a third of my medical vows

The Kid was going to die if he did not intevere. At least there was a chance of him surviving afterwards. The blame for this lies squarely and solely on the head of the idiot parents.

Zor

[Beastro]

That sounds like a typical Franklin story...


My moral superiority killed someone while also breaking about a third of my medical vows

The Kid was going to die if he did not intevere. At least there was a chance of him surviving afterwards. The blame for this lies squarely and solely on the head of the idiot parents.

Zor

As others have said, their beliefs oppose such action because the damage done is said to go beyond simply the physical. One can see that in many old native American beliefs and even some Sumerian ones. In the former case many held that the spirit held a form much like the psychical body, so cutting off an arm meant that person wouldn't have one as a spirit, in the latter, Sumerians believed there was no food, and especially no water, in the after life, so if one didn't have a family to do ritual libations for them every day they'd literally spend eternity dying of thirst unable to quench it.

The former is more relevant here though, in that if someone requires an amputation due to gangrene, such beliefs would hold it better for that person to die because the sum loss would be greater by doing so. We're all going to die, but what is preventable is not deliberately crippling oneself in the next life.

His real flaw is he thinks that, because he can heal patients physically, he can solve all their problems. Like in Late Delivery from Avalon where, despite having no apparent psychological training, he went "I'll just cure a traumatized veteran's delusion by confronting him with PROOF that his delusion is wrong! I'm totally sure that mental illness can be fixed with rational argument!"

He can't cure insanity. He can't cure zealoutry. He can fix a broken leg, clear up an air bladder infection, even cure a fatal previously-incurable plague, but he doesn't understand the things he can't fix.

That gets into the rough territory of not just psychology, but the aspects of psychology that drift beyond the medical into general aspects of life that can have talking to a priest do more good given the priests wider focus.

In the case you describe we're stepping beyond a simple medical problem and into the realm of what is the "wise" thing to do, not just what is the most "knowledgeable" one. A problem today with too many is that they assume wisdom and intelligence as interchangeable, or at the very least the latter makes one wiser, but it doesn't, and the two have little to nothing in common. One can be a very wise, retarded person, and we all know the dangers of the highly intelligent fool given Sci-Fi's historical love of the Mad Scientist archetype.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Intelligent is how smart you are. Wisdom is how stupid you aren't.