Angels Take Manhattan (DW)

[nebagram]

This episode was not a favourite of mine, simply because of the seemingly random nature of Amy & Rory's departure. They defeat the Angels' master plan, then effectively get taken out in a random Angel drive-by? It's the season 4 finale of Farscape all over again.

[Dînadan]

Am I the only one who actually likes River Song? I would have been just fine with her as a regular companion, snarking over time and space with the Doctor. Would have been better than Clara by miles.

I don't mind her, although I think she's better off as a now and again companion rather than a long term one. I think the problem with her as a regular would have been that it would have been too tempting for the writers to have her one up the Doctor all the time; having that happen once or twice is okay, but it'd get old fast and probably risk reaching the point where people would be asking why not just bring Romana back if it looked like they were making her Romana 2.0 (or would that be 3.0?)

[Arkle]

Am I the only one who actually likes River Song?

In small doses (one to two episodes per season), no you aren't alone. More than that, she tends to overstay her welcome for me.

[Durandal_1707]

Am I the only one who actually likes River Song? I would have been just fine with her as a regular companion, snarking over time and space with the Doctor. Would have been better than Clara by miles.

I don't mind her, although I think she's better off as a now and again companion rather than a long term one. I think the problem with her as a regular would have been that it would have been too tempting for the writers to have her one up the Doctor all the time; having that happen once or twice is okay, but it'd get old fast and probably risk reaching the point where people would be asking why not just bring Romana back if it looked like they were making her Romana 2.0 (or would that be 3.0?)

I liked Romana too. She was about the only good thing about the seasons she was in.

[Dînadan]

I liked Romana too. She was about the only good thing about the seasons she was in.

What no love for K9?




Bringing Romana back would be interesting, especially if they used it to show how she's changed since travelling with the Doctor (and even because of her travels with him), but it would be better to have the actual Romana rather than someone else who is like her. It'd be like having the season's overarching villain be a dark-haired, goateed, Nehru suited, scheming Time Lord and then having it not be the Master (or even the War Chief). That's not to say River definitely would get turned into a copy of Romana, but the danger is likely that she would be, which is probably why she remained as only an occasional companion and why many fans prefer her kept that way.

[Durandal_1707]

Because the only way there could be two smart, confident, female Time Lords is if they were the same person?

[Dînadan]

No but the writers have to be careful not to make them too much alike; my point is that there's a danger that you'll just end up with Romana with the serial numbers filed off rather than a unique character at which point it becomes 'if you want to have Romana why not just have Romana?' - see my point of having a Master Clone; if you're not going to make the new character something new, why bother?

They could do River as her own character, and that would be great; the worry is that they wouldn't.

What might be best is, now Galifrey is back, to try it with a fresh new character; that way she can stand on her own merits and it'll give the writers the chance to try to avoid that pitfall and prove that just because it could happen doesn't mean it will happen.

Although I'll admit that does raise the question of where the line between unique character and Romana clone is and I have a feeling that that's something everyone will disagree on, so the hardest thing for the writers would probably be which line to choose to keep the bulk of the audience happy.

Edit: I'm probably not expressing my self very well/articulating my point very well, so sorry in advance for any confusion my rambling is causing.

[Durandal_1707]

No but the writers have to be careful not to make them too much alike; my point is that there's a danger that you'll just end up with Romana with the serial numbers filed off rather than a unique character at which point it becomes 'if you want to have Romana why not just have Romana?' - see my point of having a Master Clone; if you're not going to make the new character something new, why bother?

They could do River as her own character, and that would be great; the worry is that they wouldn't.

What might be best is, now Galifrey is back, to try it with a fresh new character; that way she can stand on her own merits and it'll give the writers the chance to try to avoid that pitfall and prove that just because it could happen doesn't mean it will happen.

Although I'll admit that does raise the question of where the line between unique character and Romana clone is and I have a feeling that that's something everyone will disagree on, so the hardest thing for the writers would probably be which line to choose to keep the bulk of the audience happy.

I don't really see River and Romana as being all that similar, really, other than being generally smart and confident (and, of course, female). The Doctor and Romana were in a mentor/protégé relationship; the Doctor and River came across much more as equals, with River often coming across as being the one who knew things the other didn't. I suppose there's the thing where they both showed up the Doctor with their TARDIS piloting skills in their early appearances, but 1) the Doctor nearly flunked out of Time Lord school and was established to be actually quite stupid by Gallifreyan standards, so really, most Time Lords should be better at things than he is, and 2) the Doctor was vindicated with Romana anyway, since the reason he couldn't land had nothing to do with his piloting skills, and more to do with the fact that the planet he was trying to land on was being eaten at the time.

The other thing is that even if we granted that the writers would make a character exactly like Romana was on the show, it necessarily couldn't actually be Romana, because Romana's whole deal was that she was super-smart, but inexperienced, being fresh out of the academy. That should have changed by now, and if the Doctor were to meet her again, their dynamic should be much different. There's also the fact that by now, a large part of the audience has probably never seen any of the episodes Romana was in anyway, so the extent to which it even matters is debatable.

[Dînadan]

Totally agree with you. And as I said, it'd be nice if she were brought back to explore how she's grown during her time away. And although she'd now be more of an equal to the Doctor, just as I don't want to see River become like her, I wouldn't want her to be written like River, so if they were to do that, they must make sure that that doesn't happen.

Again, I'm not articulating myself very well, so again, sorry for rambling.



As for newer fans not having seen any Romana episodes; that's an excuse for the Beeb to rerun those episodes and shill the dvds for them

[graymorality]

I never understood why he couldn't go pick them up in 1939 and then have a fake headstone placed in that spot