DIS: Vaulting Amition

[chaos42]

I friggin' love this episode and that ending reveal, honestly. I know a lot of fandom had called it, but personally I didn't notice the hints that other people had spotted, like changing the coordinates before they jumped to the Mirror Universe. Him being more aggressive and not a typical Starfleet Captain? Just a different sort of character, possibly even more explained by his trauma (and it's great rewatching that bit with him and the Admiral - it's easy enough to play off his behavior as PTSD, yet it instead fits in so much better with him as part of the Mirror Universe.

Stuff like the Kelpian eating and whatnot... well, I think people got kind of used to the idea of the Terran Empire and the Mirror Universe itself as more of a fun thing, rather than the harsh reality that these are racist, xenophobic fascists who literally invented a method of torture to keep someone in constant pain for hours without rest or possibility of passing out from that pain. Sure, there's fun to be had in hammy performances and whatnot, but the truth is that the day to day running of the Empire was a brutal regime of oppression and, well, evil.

What I actually like about these events in particular is that it KIND OF fits into a version of events in the Mirror Universe if we go from "In a Mirror, Darkly" to "Mirror, Mirror." Hoshi Sato becomes Empress and institutes her own directives, particularly culture and a line of Empresses. The uniforms were less kind to women in particular (I mean, considering the jumpsuits worn by the crew, what's the point of the crop-tops in the Enterprise-Era Mirror Universe?). Suddenly, Hoshi comes in and institutes new policies (I don't think we see ANY alien Mirror Universe officers in these episodes), we see more women Captains in Discovery-era Mirror Universe, and in particular the uniforms are... well, uniforms for both men and women.

After the events of the next episode, the Empress is overthrown and whoever manages to take over in the ensuing power struggle might be a more hardlined traditionalist, returning the Empire to more like it was in the 22nd century before Sato - the uniforms becoming more like the piratewear seen in "Mirror, Mirror," - particularly when it comes to the miniskirts and crop tops. They're more open to aliens in their ranks like during the Enterprise-era (especially if the rebellion has been crushed by that point).

Thats something that happens a lot in mirror universes, over throws of those in power the original series (including the fairest of them all fan film) the ds9 episodes, Your own evil universe counter part, it seems that there are several things you always know about the mirror universe.

1. everyone will sell you out or kill you the min. its in their best interest, except brunt (and look what happen to him)
2. evil is dumb, they plot and scheme but they will do amazingly dumb things
3. Who ever is in power will be violently over thrown, sooner rather than later.

also i didn't figure out he was mirror universe till they got there. and thats only because they where there i figured he was part of if not a leader in section 31. when he sent them there, i knew it, the mirror thing i didn't really get as i though it was just more weird stuff with the spore drive.

[MyUserName]

It's a really small thing, but as a long time fan and admirer of Michelle Yeoh, I love how smooth and fast her movements are in the few moments of action she has. Even after all these years she's still got it.

Other than that, meh. It's discovery, where the only thing being discovered is how goofy this show can get.

I've been going through TNG season 7 on Netflix. And despite how goofy some of the initial setup of some of those plots were, there was still the typical TNG sense of intelligence and character work at play that make them worth watching. If only Discovery could be half as intelligent, they wouldn't be struggling to find an audience.

You can also get away with some ridiculousness and ass-pull plots once your characters are well established and the audience already likes them. Genesis, if it had been in Season 1, might have been the worst episode of Trek ever. Instead, it's a ridiculous premise with piss-poor execution, but we're invested in the characters dealing with this crap, so even as things descend into madness we can recognize the characters we like still doing things in the story.

It's a bit less forgivable that everyone had family coming out of the woodworks-Worf's unmentioned stepbrother, Deanna's unmentioned dead sister, Beverly's never mentioned before grandmother, Picard's (fake) son, and Data's never-seen-before mother. The only one that's forgivable is Geordi's mom, since his family had basically never been mentioned before and the episode was actually strongly focused on his character growth.

Episodes like Genesis and masks have incredibly silly and insane plots, but they are treated with such sincere gravitas and intelligence, the actors play them up so real and there some intelligence and wit in dealing with the goofiness, that the episode is saved and made worth while. Masks is one of my fave episodes because Picard gets to go full archaeologist and break out some real acting, and Brent Spiner gets to display acting chops every bit as respectable. Sure, they do feature some ass pulls, but the character work, development, and exploration is still damn solid and there is still intelligence there.

Try saying that with a straight face about most of Discovery. And I swear Season 2 desperately needs to bring back the TNG era Klingon designs. I hate these new ones so much.

[bronnt]

Masks is one of my fave episodes because Picard gets to go full archaeologist and break out some real acting, and Brent Spiner gets to display acting chops every bit as respectable. Sure, they do feature some ass pulls, but the character work, development, and exploration is still damn solid and there is still intelligence there.

Even though it's ridiculous, I also have a soft spot for Masks, since it plays out like a mystery. The solution is silly, but there's a bit of a logical build up to it, and the alien civilization remains enigmatic even though they manage to handle the problem. It's weird, original, and creative.

It still is a premise that just doesn't work in Season 1 because it requires a certain investment in the characters. If you're not invested in the characters of Picard and Data, this mind-screw stuff is just going to come off like nonsense.

That's part of what I see in Discovery. It seems like they think the mind-screw stuff is compelling, but when we can't get invested in the characters, there's nothing holding us to the show. And Discovery really hasn't explored the characters with the kind of depth needed to make you really like them, at least not yet.

[Wargriffin]

The Janeway bit XD

[Fianna]

Question: has any Mirror Universe episode ever explored what Mirror Khan would be like? I'm curious whether he'd be a peaceful and benevolent guy there, or someone considered too violent and barbaric even by the Terran Empire's standards.

[Karha of Honor]

And here I was, just ready to dive into Thrawn: Aliances and somehow I've lost all interest in all things Force related. I wonder why? Effing force ghosts in my effing Star Trek. Effing mycelial network. Effing light sensitive mirror world humans... sigh, fucking ST:D.

You can find stuff just as stupid in other Trek easily.

I have missed Captain Insaneway, it seems like it has been so long since we saw her.

As for Discovery, I just can't get into it. It is like they took everything in Star Trek (and in tv generally) that I hate and shoved it all into one show. Why must tv always disappoint me?

I enjoyed most of it but the end did get to dark. I hope season 2 will be better with less behind the scenes drama mucking up the product.

It's a really small thing, but as a long time fan and admirer of Michelle Yeoh, I love how smooth and fast her movements are in the few moments of action she has. Even after all these years she's still got it.

Other than that, meh. It's discovery, where the only thing being discovered is how goofy this show can get.

I've been going through TNG season 7 on Netflix. And despite how goofy some of the initial setup of some of those plots were, there was still the typical TNG sense of intelligence and character work at play that make them worth watching. If only Discovery could be half as intelligent, they wouldn't be struggling to find an audience.

Goofy? It has nothing on the other shows in that department.

If only Discovery could be half as intelligent, they wouldn't be struggling to find an audience.

Source?

[Deledrius]

It appears as though they're trying to stuff too many big ideas into too small a space.

Basically, and given the executive change-over, it seems likely that it's trying to stuff too many disparate ideas into a single story, salvaging as much as possible, and being so plot-driven as a result that characters take U-turns in order to fit the path things have to follow to hit all the story beats they've decided to keep.

After watching this episode, I just have to ask, is the Mirror Universe's sensitivity to light backed up at all by established canon? It really feels like something the producers just pulled out of their ass.

The most honest place it feels like it comes from is someone thought it would be clever to use it as foreshadowing (which kinda-sorta fails when it's a retcon about an established race) while covering for a decision that was made at the directorial/cinematography level. Because in the end, it's a lie. Nearly every ship we see is dimly-lit and shadowed. It's not just Lorca's presence that requires it. I'd give it a B+ for effort plastering over it, but no points for the reveal being forced and nonsense.

[clearspira]

I friggin' love this episode and that ending reveal, honestly. I know a lot of fandom had called it, but personally I didn't notice the hints that other people had spotted, like changing the coordinates before they jumped to the Mirror Universe. Him being more aggressive and not a typical Starfleet Captain? Just a different sort of character, possibly even more explained by his trauma (and it's great rewatching that bit with him and the Admiral - it's easy enough to play off his behavior as PTSD, yet it instead fits in so much better with him as part of the Mirror Universe.

Stuff like the Kelpian eating and whatnot... well, I think people got kind of used to the idea of the Terran Empire and the Mirror Universe itself as more of a fun thing, rather than the harsh reality that these are racist, xenophobic fascists who literally invented a method of torture to keep someone in constant pain for hours without rest or possibility of passing out from that pain. Sure, there's fun to be had in hammy performances and whatnot, but the truth is that the day to day running of the Empire was a brutal regime of oppression and, well, evil.

What I actually like about these events in particular is that it KIND OF fits into a version of events in the Mirror Universe if we go from "In a Mirror, Darkly" to "Mirror, Mirror." Hoshi Sato becomes Empress and institutes her own directives, particularly culture and a line of Empresses. The uniforms were less kind to women in particular (I mean, considering the jumpsuits worn by the crew, what's the point of the crop-tops in the Enterprise-Era Mirror Universe?). Suddenly, Hoshi comes in and institutes new policies (I don't think we see ANY alien Mirror Universe officers in these episodes), we see more women Captains in Discovery-era Mirror Universe, and in particular the uniforms are... well, uniforms for both men and women.

After the events of the next episode, the Empress is overthrown and whoever manages to take over in the ensuing power struggle might be a more hardlined traditionalist, returning the Empire to more like it was in the 22nd century before Sato - the uniforms becoming more like the piratewear seen in "Mirror, Mirror," - particularly when it comes to the miniskirts and crop tops. They're more open to aliens in their ranks like during the Enterprise-era (especially if the rebellion has been crushed by that point).

I find it unlikely that Mirror Hoshi would be this massive advocate for equal rights given how duplicitous, violent, and without any meaningful conscience that she was. I find it far more likely that such a person would have a ''bullied becomes the bully'' mentality and psychotically try and do the same to the men as what happened to her.

[clearspira]

It appears as though they're trying to stuff too many big ideas into too small a space.

Basically, and given the executive change-over, it seems likely that it's trying to stuff too many disparate ideas into a single story, salvaging as much as possible, and being so plot-driven as a result that characters take U-turns in order to fit the path things have to follow to hit all the story beats they've decided to keep.

After watching this episode, I just have to ask, is the Mirror Universe's sensitivity to light backed up at all by established canon? It really feels like something the producers just pulled out of their ass.

The most honest place it feels like it comes from is someone thought it would be clever to use it as foreshadowing (which kinda-sorta fails when it's a retcon about an established race) while covering for a decision that was made at the directorial/cinematography level. Because in the end, it's a lie. Nearly every ship we see is dimly-lit and shadowed. It's not just Lorca's presence that requires it. I'd give it a B+ for effort plastering over it, but no points for the reveal being forced and nonsense.

I've always liked Chuck's mocking of the fact that Voyager turns dark whenever there is a red alert, because in an emergency you want to see as little as possible.

[Wargriffin]

I friggin' love this episode and that ending reveal, honestly. I know a lot of fandom had called it, but personally I didn't notice the hints that other people had spotted, like changing the coordinates before they jumped to the Mirror Universe. Him being more aggressive and not a typical Starfleet Captain? Just a different sort of character, possibly even more explained by his trauma (and it's great rewatching that bit with him and the Admiral - it's easy enough to play off his behavior as PTSD, yet it instead fits in so much better with him as part of the Mirror Universe.

Stuff like the Kelpian eating and whatnot... well, I think people got kind of used to the idea of the Terran Empire and the Mirror Universe itself as more of a fun thing, rather than the harsh reality that these are racist, xenophobic fascists who literally invented a method of torture to keep someone in constant pain for hours without rest or possibility of passing out from that pain. Sure, there's fun to be had in hammy performances and whatnot, but the truth is that the day to day running of the Empire was a brutal regime of oppression and, well, evil.

What I actually like about these events in particular is that it KIND OF fits into a version of events in the Mirror Universe if we go from "In a Mirror, Darkly" to "Mirror, Mirror." Hoshi Sato becomes Empress and institutes her own directives, particularly culture and a line of Empresses. The uniforms were less kind to women in particular (I mean, considering the jumpsuits worn by the crew, what's the point of the crop-tops in the Enterprise-Era Mirror Universe?). Suddenly, Hoshi comes in and institutes new policies (I don't think we see ANY alien Mirror Universe officers in these episodes), we see more women Captains in Discovery-era Mirror Universe, and in particular the uniforms are... well, uniforms for both men and women.

After the events of the next episode, the Empress is overthrown and whoever manages to take over in the ensuing power struggle might be a more hardlined traditionalist, returning the Empire to more like it was in the 22nd century before Sato - the uniforms becoming more like the piratewear seen in "Mirror, Mirror," - particularly when it comes to the miniskirts and crop tops. They're more open to aliens in their ranks like during the Enterprise-era (especially if the rebellion has been crushed by that point).

I find it unlikely that Mirror Hoshi would be this massive advocate for equal rights given how duplicitous, violent, and without any meaningful conscience that she was. I find it far more likely that such a person would have a ''bullied becomes the bully'' mentality and psychotically try and do the same to the men as what happened to her.

If people were predictable...