DIS: Vaulting Amition

[Deledrius]

STD or SFDebris?

It sure justifies Chuck's existence, there's so much bad in this episode that I legitimately am disappointed that Chuck's sticking to such a stolidly neutral, summary-over-analysis methodology here. If there ever was a series that deserved Chuck spending half an hour per episode going full-bore serious analysis with both barrels (in an angry or non-angry way), it was this one.

I suspect that we're going to get the less neutral analysis once it's all done. I can't blame him; it's not a show that lends itself well to an episode-by-episode review in a lot of ways (and that's convenient for the show and the network, as it allows them to deflect criticisms until they've faded). The season-end review will be good, I have every expectation, once the entire story can be looked at for how well it holds together or falls apart.

For STD, "Vaulting Ambitions" just makes it clear that they were half-assing this whole season.

We have yet to get to the worst part, though. As an acquaintance put it, "Episode 13 destroyed Lorca and Mirror Georgiou's characters*. Episode 14 destroyed Sarek and Admiral Cornwell. Episode 15 destroyed Ash**."

By the way, I hate how episode 15 tries to make L'Rell into a good guy. She. Is. A. Rapist. She's a fascist cannibal rapist, how the Hell is anyone supposed to sympathize with her????

*Not that Mirror Georgiou was anything more than a thinly-sketched psychopath to begin with, but her motivations make no sense in episode 13.
**By having Ash Tyler ride off into the sunset with his rapist.

I agree, with all of that. It's just a cascade of character assassination and idiot-ball sharing.

Honestly, Lorca being Mirror COULD have been good--if they hadn't gone to the MU, if he'd been obviously psychologically scarred by it, if there was any sign that he was at all a decent person. I would've loved something like "Traumatized Mirror refugee Lorca taking his counterpart's place after said counterpart was stuck and killed in the MU while trying to evac himself and Lorca" which provides pathos, regret, all kinds of great emotional depth that can be used to develop a storyline, further the mentor/apprentice relationship between Lorca and Burnham, give Burnham a chance to re-live her fuckups and make a better choice...

Every time the show had a choice, they invariably chose the most predictable and least interesting option. You can tell it was written in the wrong order, with plot points at the end worked backwards. Someone was trying to fill in and flesh things out in between making it more interesting, but none of those points ever matter because they were invented after the plot's track was laid and the train wasn't allowed to take a better route.

[Worffan101]

STD or SFDebris?

It sure justifies Chuck's existence, there's so much bad in this episode that I legitimately am disappointed that Chuck's sticking to such a stolidly neutral, summary-over-analysis methodology here. If there ever was a series that deserved Chuck spending half an hour per episode going full-bore serious analysis with both barrels (in an angry or non-angry way), it was this one.

I suspect that we're going to get the less neutral analysis once it's all done. I can't blame him; it's not a show that lends itself well to an episode-by-episode review in a lot of ways (and that's convenient for the show and the network, as it allows them to deflect criticisms until they've faded). The season-end review will be good, I have every expectation, once the entire story can be looked at for how well it holds together or falls apart.

Fair enough, I hope Chuck shreds this turd. Both in the "hilariously profane angry rant" sense and the "serious analysis of its structural problems" sense.

For STD, "Vaulting Ambitions" just makes it clear that they were half-assing this whole season.

We have yet to get to the worst part, though. As an acquaintance put it, "Episode 13 destroyed Lorca and Mirror Georgiou's characters*. Episode 14 destroyed Sarek and Admiral Cornwell. Episode 15 destroyed Ash**."

By the way, I hate how episode 15 tries to make L'Rell into a good guy. She. Is. A. Rapist. She's a fascist cannibal rapist, how the Hell is anyone supposed to sympathize with her????

*Not that Mirror Georgiou was anything more than a thinly-sketched psychopath to begin with, but her motivations make no sense in episode 13.
**By having Ash Tyler ride off into the sunset with his rapist.

I agree, with all of that. It's just a cascade of character assassination and idiot-ball sharing.

The worst part? Mirror Georgiou could've been a fantastic final-boss villain. Think about it--the sadistic and tyrannical Empress of Terra, suzerain of a thousand worlds and commander of a hyper-militarized fleet of planet-shattering power, who wants nothing less than the complete destruction of the soul of the Federation itself, a fascist despot who looks and sounds absolutely identical to a deceased character who one of the protagonists has a deep personal connection to...wouldn't that be a Wrath of Khan level epic story, the story of going out in a desperate quest to defeat the psychopathic Empress of Terra before she can destroy the Federation?

I mean, that sounds to me like good old-fashioned space opera, which Trek is DEEPLY rooted in.

Honestly, Lorca being Mirror COULD have been good--if they hadn't gone to the MU, if he'd been obviously psychologically scarred by it, if there was any sign that he was at all a decent person. I would've loved something like "Traumatized Mirror refugee Lorca taking his counterpart's place after said counterpart was stuck and killed in the MU while trying to evac himself and Lorca" which provides pathos, regret, all kinds of great emotional depth that can be used to develop a storyline, further the mentor/apprentice relationship between Lorca and Burnham, give Burnham a chance to re-live her fuckups and make a better choice...

Every time the show had a choice, they invariably chose the most predictable and least interesting option. You can tell it was written in the wrong order, with plot points at the end worked backwards. Someone was trying to fill in and flesh things out in between making it more interesting, but none of those points ever matter because they were invented after the plot's track was laid and the train wasn't allowed to take a better route.

So true!

I mean, Empress Cannibal's heel-face turn was so nonsensical I'm surprised that made it through the initial drafts, much less into the final product. And why are all the episodes so short if not because they ran out of money and ideas? I mean, they had little to no runtime limits and the garbage "service" is a freaking Netflix clone made for binging.

So...why?

[clearspira]

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/c112.php

We all have different perspectives on Discovery's first season, but I think as fans of Chuck's show, we must all agree that this episode justifies its existence xD

STD or SFDebris?

It sure justifies Chuck's existence, there's so much bad in this episode that I legitimately am disappointed that Chuck's sticking to such a stolidly neutral, summary-over-analysis methodology here. If there ever was a series that deserved Chuck spending half an hour per episode going full-bore serious analysis with both barrels (in an angry or non-angry way), it was this one.

For STD, "Vaulting Ambitions" just makes it clear that they were half-assing this whole season.

We have yet to get to the worst part, though. As an acquaintance put it, "Episode 13 destroyed Lorca and Mirror Georgiou's characters*. Episode 14 destroyed Sarek and Admiral Cornwell. Episode 15 destroyed Ash**."

By the way, I hate how episode 15 tries to make L'Rell into a good guy. She. Is. A. Rapist. She's a fascist cannibal rapist, how the Hell is anyone supposed to sympathize with her????

*Not that Mirror Georgiou was anything more than a thinly-sketched psychopath to begin with, but her motivations make no sense in episode 13.
**By having Ash Tyler ride off into the sunset with his rapist.

We have a different Chuck nowadays though. The one that started every video with ''welcome to the idiocy that is Voyager'' would have been far more vitriolic about it.
Not passing judgement on which Chuck is better, but those of us who remember the original Youtube versions of his reviews know what I am talking about regarding his change in tone over the years.

[FaxModem1]

I think the best course of action would have been making Lorca experience the arc that Mirror-Georgiou is going to experience in season 2. That is, after spending a few months in Federation culture, realizing that you can actually lay down your guard, have people who you can trust, and get things accomplished without having to kill everyone in your sight.

At first, just have him be someone who fights Klingons and wants to rescue his followers. But, after gelling with his crew. Once he gets beyond some of the PTSD that being a citizen of the Terran Empire requires, you'd relax quite a bit. Maybe even have Lorca embrace the Federation to a limited extent. Lorca can't be captain of the Discovery anymore, but he can be what Burnham is, someone starting at the bottom again and living up to their potential.

At least, that's how I would have done it.

That, and bring back Prime-Georgiou somehow.

[Riedquat]

I suspect that we're going to get the less neutral analysis once it's all done.

Wonder if it's bad enough that that could be what's lined up for Christmas?

[Worffan101]

I suspect that we're going to get the less neutral analysis once it's all done.

Wonder if it's bad enough that that could be what's lined up for Christmas?

I'm friends with a guy who sponsored what he says Chuck thinks will be a good Christmas episode. Allegedly, Christmas is going to be another "worst of the worst", of a non-Trek show.

[Makeshift Python]

We have a different Chuck nowadays though. The one that started every video with ''welcome to the idiocy that is Voyager'' would have been far more vitriolic about it.
Not passing judgement on which Chuck is better, but those of us who remember the original Youtube versions of his reviews know what I am talking about regarding his change in tone over the years.

And who could blame Old Chuck when he was exclusively reviewing nothing but the early episodes of VOYAGER and ENTERPRISE? Him just reviewing his first TNG video with "Encounter at Farpoint" was like rocking the boat at the time.

That said, I hope Chuck comes away having enjoyed it more than not while still bringing a levelheaded critique to it. For me it's a mixed bag, but I haven't given up on it yet because I see a lot of potential with the characters having stronger stories to play out in later episodes. I can't dismiss the show outright, not when we've had past Trek shows have a shaky start yet eventually find its footing. TNG is the most obvious example with its insufferable first season. That's not to say it will have the same fate as TNG, it could go either way. I just hope it finds it much quicker than ENTERPRISE did, as that only got good when it was way too late for it to fully recover from the major loss of viewers.

In retrospect, of all the spin-offs I think it's only behind DS9, while more or less ahead of TNG, VOYAGER, and ENTERPRISE as far as first seasons go.

[Worffan101]

The thing that pisses me off about the "first season" excuse is that, like Enterprise, STD SHOULD HAVE LEARNED. They had every opportunity to learn from TNG, DS9, Voyager, and ENT, and they didn't. They decided to rip off nuBSG's tone without the high-caliber writing that made the first two seasons of that show good, and hacked together a story while high on magic mushrooms.

This. Should. Not. Have. Happened. Anybody on this forum could've written a better season of the show in maybe a week.

[Makeshift Python]

The thing that pisses me off about the "first season" excuse is that, like Enterprise, STD SHOULD HAVE LEARNED. They had every opportunity to learn from TNG, DS9, Voyager, and ENT, and they didn't. They decided to rip off nuBSG's tone without the high-caliber writing that made the first two seasons of that show good, and hacked together a story while high on magic mushrooms.

This. Should. Not. Have. Happened. Anybody on this forum could've written a better season of the show in maybe a week.

It's really not just down to the quality of writing but also figuring out what show it is. TNG started off with the action/adventure vibe of TOS before it gradually became a more cerebral show when writers/producers saw the strengths "The Measure of a Man" brought out. DS9's first season felt more like TNG, before the following seasons embraced more of that serialized storytelling that solidified that show's identity. VOYAGER just seemed to change at the whim of each showrunner that took over. Then there's ENTERPRISE, which didn't have issues relegated to just the first season but the first TWO. I honestly don't see much difference in quality between the two seasons as they're equally bland.

And we know why all of this happened from what's been said behind the scenes. We're learning why DISCOVERY's rocky first season is how it turned out. I knew whatever show DISCOVERY was going to become, its first season was not going to be reflective of that, anymore than TNG's first season is. Judging by the trailers, it looks like they're embracing more of that jovial adventure quality instead of going for grim BSG war stories, which I think is much welcomed because the characters have shown to be more fitting to lighter stories.

[Ordo]

The Janeway bit XD

It's almost as if Discovery was created to set up that joke, completely brilliant!

Not going to lie, that works so well I could almost see it being canon.