Chuck, Janeway, Flashback?

[Yukaphile]

Was watching Flashback, and I can't help but agree Chuck is right that Janeway is utterly unworthy to judge Kirk and Spock for being too reckless, for not following the Prime Directive to a T. So let's run down the ways she's a hypocrite in this regard, shall we?

I'll name one from each of the series set in the 24th century.

In TNG, we saw Picard abandon a diplomatic mission in a passionate attempt to give his mentor Galen's death some meaning, despite how urgent the conference was, and that there were personal reasons involved. Under Janeway's logic, this is reckless, and Picard should be kicked out of Starfleet. Strike one.

In DS9, Sisko bombed a Maquis colony with nerve gas in order to drive out their enemy and capture him, consequences be damned, and he was never even shown to be punished for it past maybe a mark on his record. Under Janeway's logic, this is even more reckless, and morally questionable, and thus Sisko should be kicked out of Starfleet. Strike two.

In Voyager itself, Janeway violates the Prime Directive to save Neelix from some enemy miners, yet will invoke it in order to let whole species die out, and there was the time she almost let that guy get killed while pursuing the Equinox possibly in revenge over what Ransom did. Under her own logic, Janeway was reckless, she's a hypocrite, and should be thrown out of Starfleet. And that's strike three.

SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE'S OUTTA THERE!

But seriously, your guys' thoughts? Let's make this a game, to show examples how completely unworthy she is to judge TOS the way she does.

[Meushell]

I don’t think the first two count unless we see her agree with Picard’s and Sisko’s actions. Picard’s discovery probably excused him. Sisko getting results probably excused him. Neither behavior was normal though, and probably not something Starfleet would have put up with on a consistent basis. It’s been years since I saw the actual episode, but from my understanding, part of her point was that Kirk being reckless (by her standards) was normal for his time. That behavior would not be accepted by the Starfleet of her time. Simply acknowledging that isn’t a judgment in itself. Kirk and Spock were more reckless because they had to be. Sisko himself got away with more when Starfleet was at war with the Dominion.

Janeway is finding herself more alone, even than Kirk. Her behavior is becoming more reckless as a result. (Aligning with the Borg is a big ol’ red flag of just how reckless she could get.) Janeway is a hypocrite because she judges in Kirk what she doesn’t see in herself. Instead, she should be looking to Kirk and early captains for inspiration. She should also look at where those early captains went wrong to keep herself in check.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Yeah I don't get it. She gets thrown out for calling them out, being held accountable for their own violations?

[Yukaphile]

"Equinox" was the poster child for her hypocrisy. Punishes the Equinox crew for refusing to follow their conscience - and then punishes Chakotay for violating his orders and following his. Bah!

[Deledrius]

"Equinox" was the poster child for her hypocrisy. Punishes the Equinox crew for refusing to follow their conscience - and then punishes Chakotay for violating his orders and following his. Bah!

The fact that he capitulates and remains steadfast friends with her at the end to restore the status quo after what she did utterly destroyed whatever character integrity he had left. That's the sort of thing which led to him joining the Maquis, but I guess he'd grown out of that idealistic phase.

[Artabax]

In DS9, Sisko bombed a Maquis colony with nerve gas in order to drive out their enemy and capture him, consequences be damned, and he was never even shown to be punished for it past maybe a mark on his record. Under Janeway's logic, this is even more reckless, and morally questionable, and thus Sisko should be kicked out of Starfleet. Strike two.

How is Sisko genociding planets for the sake of PD inconsistent with Janeway genociding planets for the sake of PD? She never condemned Sisko.
Janeway openly condemned Kirk and gloated about expelling him from Starfleet. Kirk did not genocide.

Picard tried genociding planets for the sake of PD but every time, he failed. Janeway condemning Picard is perfectly consistent.