Areas where you'd respectfully disagree with Chuck

[FaxModem1]

It's out of place in Star Trek. It's an appeal to the past, to isolationism, and Romanticism in an Enlightenment work in which growing up as a people and embracing our differences together while using technology to improve our lives makes a better society.

Wanting to throw it all away because of nostalgia is a powerful drive, and progress should be made with care, but the 'simple life' is hard, back-breaking, and one of suffering, disease, death, and struggle. Tolkien's appeals to it were in reaction to his horror at World War I, and forgetting how technological improvements made the quaint English farm life easier.

The fact that its so completely out of step with typical Trek philosophy is part of what would make the idea worth exploring. How seriously can we take Trek's philosophy if there's no counterpoint?

In the real world almost everyone is happy with advances like medicine and sanitation, but we also spend a good deal of time fretting about the possible negative effects of social media and AI. That's nothing compared to the replicators, holographic technology, and the removal of monetary incentive to work, all of which appear in the TNG era. And yet we're supposed to believe that no one in the Federation has reservations regarding the psychological/cultural/spiritual implications of all that? There's more to it than simple nostalgia.

There's a lot of different tacks you could take. Most of them wouldn't need to be wholly anti-technology. It's unfortunate that the Ba'ku were so horrible, because its worth exploring some of those issues, even (maybe especially) if you ultimately come down on the Federation's side.

We have, occasionally, seen such places explored. It was DS9 season 2's Paradise. Without the magic of the fountain of youth radiation, the colonists lived such a harsh life that survival was very hard and death was around every corner. On the plus side, they didn't have to work office jobs somewhere.

We also saw what happens if you go down to the planet unprepared and expect it to be Paradise. In TOS's "The Way to Eden", the space hippies discover that the only way to not be in pain from the planet's foliage was to hide in the shuttle.

And sure, Trek will show them being wary if new technologies and trying to be careful with them(see Barclay and his holo-addiction), but unless you enjoy a full day's physical labor, it's nice to have conveinences and appliances in our lives.

[CmdrKing]

Star Trek as a property is concerned with the potential of technology to enhance our lives at the very core of its DNA: Gene was very much a techno-socialist. So in that respect, that bias is going to be inescapable.

But I think we can make a case for it within the narrative. Remember that all our principle characters are Star Fleet, and in most series are the intellectual all-stars, serving on the flagship or ships using cutting-edge technology. They're going to be the ones most invested in those philosophies by default, because they're the ones out there exploring, expanding, and depending on those same technologies.

But once in a while the franchise has gone back to Earth, and we do see that people aren't necessarily that way everywhere.
I'm thinking of Family, where Robert Picard has spent his whole life making wine the traditional way. If we suppose replicators can make true alcohol and accurately recreate excellent vintages of wine, he'd probably still be doing it. Because he values to process, has dedicated himself to it, and in practical terms even the best replicator can only make copies of an existing vintage. It can't make up new wines or varietals of grapes. It can't experiment.
The same is true of Joseph Sisko. Going to a restaurant is an experience, home cooked food can be finessed and take on new qualities based on all sorts of changes.
And ultimately, some people just find value in traditional processes, and others will appreciate that. And in the Federation... well, they can. All the basics are taken care of, so you can just spend your time doing what fascinates you.

[TrueMetis]

That's always going to be the problem with back to nature episodes. It's trivially easy to gain what little their is to be gained from a less technologically advanced lifestyle by simply not using technology for a specific task. I can guarantee you that if I lived in the federation I'd have a whole bunch of handcrafted wooden pieces of furniture, because I enjoy woodworking and get satisfaction from working with my hands. But I'm also going to be taking advantage of the tech around me, including the fact I can use a holoworkshop to have any tool I need rather than having to deal with actual physical tools. A workshop where i never have to clean up or worry about maintenance of my tools is basically heaven.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I thought of the example of the space hippies in The Way to Eden, but the rather libertarian argument the hippies were making was undermined by Dr. Severin being insane and acting in bad faith (as well as by the poor quality of the episode).

It's true that Robert Picard has his vineyard, Jean Luc had his archeology and Shakespeare, Riker has his interest in jazz. Everyone in Trek is well-adjusted and enjoys working on their own hobbies while also committing to advancing the ideals of the Federation, risking their lives for the sake of those ideals and working together with other races and civilizations to build an even grander future.

But all that relates to my point- for the most part, Star Trek stacks the deck in favor of its own perspective (although TOS predates the problem and DS9 does the best it can to give the Federation some flaws). You could easily argue that unlimited replication and holographic technology could create an insular society, or subculture, that would no longer have any motivation to leave the house let alone contribute to a civilization that no longer has any struggles, needs, or incentives. But it's pretty much impossible to argue against Trek's utopia on this or any other line because we never see people falling through the cracks or dealing with existential crises.

Again, I'm not faulting Trek for wholeheartedly embracing technology. I just think that some of the questions the movie tries (and fails) to raise are worth addressing.

[FaxModem1]

I thought of the example of the space hippies in The Way to Eden, but the rather libertarian argument the hippies were making was undermined by Dr. Severin being insane and acting in bad faith (as well as by the poor quality of the episode).

It's true that Robert Picard has his vineyard, Jean Luc had his archeology and Shakespeare, Riker has his interest in jazz. Everyone in Trek is well-adjusted and enjoys working on their own hobbies while also committing to advancing the ideals of the Federation, risking their lives for the sake of those ideals and working together with other races and civilizations to build an even grander future.

But all that relates to my point- for the most part, Star Trek stacks the deck in favor of its own perspective (although TOS predates the problem and DS9 does the best it can to give the Federation some flaws). You could easily argue that unlimited replication and holographic technology could create an insular society, or subculture, that would no longer have any motivation to leave the house let alone contribute to a civilization that no longer has any struggles, needs, or incentives. But it's pretty much impossible to argue against Trek's utopia on this or any other line because we never see people falling through the cracks or dealing with existential crises.

Again, I'm not faulting Trek for wholeheartedly embracing technology. I just think that some of the questions the movie tries (and fails) to raise are worth addressing.

I think it's definitely answered better with Barclay. Here's a man doing the equivalent of VR all the time, and his personal and professional life are suffering because of it. Holo-addiction does seem to be an issue, but through counseling, and having a support network of people, Barclay is able to get out of it.

He does sort of relapse during Voyager, but he is able to get out of it again through encouragement. There's a potential there.

With replicated food, people are able to be fed anywhere, but there's a preference for 'real food', due to replicated food 'just not being the same'.

So, they do have some problems, but they seem minor. For instance, they have a rather draconian view on genetic engineering, which seems to be easing, seeing as how Torres and Paris's baby is given genetic changes in utero.

Culturally the biggest problem seems to be Bashir's father. Someone who can't find his niche, and keeps on changing careers. This is considered embarrassing to Bashir.

[drewder]

They way they're always talking about how humanity has evolved you'd think someone found the gene for disagreement and turned it off for everyone. That's why all the humans in the federation were so boring.

[Yukaphile]

Well, prior to DS9, you'd think they'd have just genetically toned down our aggressiveness, but then you get Sisko and to episodes like "The Siege of AR-558," so no, that's out.

[drewder]

Well, prior to DS9, you'd think they'd have just genetically toned down our aggressiveness, but then you get Sisko and to episodes like "The Siege of AR-558," so no, that's out.

Well i think he gets it from his mother's side.

[FaxModem1]

Probably just a lot of arguments are old hat, and just don't matter, societally. In the same way most people today don't blink at someone being left handed, that used to be a serious point of contention centuries ago.

In Star Trek, most differences have been met, and culturally, they do have an embracing of different. At the same time, they still do have some xenophobic urges. Their distrust of Romulans, Jake Sisko's thinking of religion as stupid, their contempt for Ferengi, etc. They are a LOT better than us, but they are still human.

[Artabax]

They way they're always talking about how humanity has evolved you'd think someone found the gene for disagreement and turned it off for everyone. That's why all the humans in the federation were so boring.

Troii is useful???
Troii's main job is to say Captain, that angry alien is angry. Fed has evolved beyond anger. Fed needs to hire an alien witch to explain such a dificult concept.