The MCU's Ghost vs. Kylo Ren

[Winter]

So I just started re-watching Ant-Man and the Wasp, (I had gotten it for my birthday) and I personally find it to be a rather underrated movie. However, seeing Ghost aka Ava Starr, I couldn't help but be reminded of Kylo Ren. Not that I found her to be an annoying woman child with no real talent or talent in anything she does (my opinion) but rather in that she shows what Ren COULD have been.

Like Ren she has a hero (of sorts) as a mentor, she also has a grudge against a legendary hero whom she blames for her situation, she's quick to anger and wears a silly costume. However, IMHO, Ava zigs everywhere Ren zags. She has a more fleshed out relationship with her mentor whereas Ren's relationships are vague at best, convoluted at worst. Her grudge against a retired hero, while hand-waved away, is a lot more understandable given her condition. Her short temper also works as, like Scorpius from Farscape she's in constant pain which clearly has an effect on her psyche. Even her suit, which I actually really like, has a in universe explanation as it helps her control her powers.

So for me I think Ava wins hands down just in terms of characterization. And in terms of combat. Ava wins. Ren could barely defeat the janitor and has lost to Rey twice now and almost lost to a few none Force User Guards. Ava's powers could actually give a Force User a run for their money and she proved throughout Ant-Man and the Wasp that she is a very skilled fighter, whereas with Ren, his most notable victories has been killing two unarmed old guys.

But that's just me, who do you guys think would win and do you also think that Ava is Ren done right?

[CharlesPhipps]

I dunno, I wonder how Ava could have done with a bullet wound.

Also, Ren conquered the galaxy. He just didn't get the girl.

The big difference between them is that Ren is evil. He's not misunderstood, he's not tragic, and he's not got an excuse for his evil actions. He's a greedy self-centered monster who hate the fact he's not given everything he could ever want out of hand so he takes it.

Ren's deal is he's NOT tragically misunderstood but everyone keeps cutting him breaks.

[Worffan101]

I dunno, I wonder how Ava could have done with a bullet wound.

Also, Ren conquered the galaxy. He just didn't get the girl.

The big difference between them is that Ren is evil. He's not misunderstood, he's not tragic, and he's got an excuse for his evil actions. He's a greedy self-centered monster who hate the fact he's not given everything he could ever want out of hand so he takes it.

Ren's deal is he's NOT tragically misunderstood but everyone keeps cutting him breaks.

This.

That's also pretty much the #1 reason why I fucking hate Kylo Ren. He's a whiny, wimpy, one-note little shithead who belongs on an "incel" subreddit or nchanistan whining about the "chads" and "stacies", and yet the movies that are supposedly soooo liberal keep treating him like he's...not a completely rotten little shithead who should be gutted like a fish and left for the womp rats? What?

Whenever the alt-right complain about the "Disney SJW conspiracy" I laugh my ass off because this character is a walking counterpoint.

[CharlesPhipps]

Mind you, I think that the movies are aware Kylo Ren is a monster.

It's just the fandom doesn't seem to get it.

I could be wrong, though.

Then again, I give JJ Abrams enough credit that Ren was designed around, "Upper class White Kid who joins ISIS and unironically admires the Empire."

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

Ant-man and the Wasp was just the sort of film that would be expected and needed after a downer film in Infinity War. It's a light, fun movie. Ghost's characterization and motivation worked out pretty good, in that you both sympathize with her and realize that she needs to be stopped, but there isn't much to her story besides that.

Mind you, I think that the movies are aware Kylo Ren is a monster.

It's just the fandom doesn't seem to get it.

I could be wrong, though.

Then again, I give JJ Abrams enough credit that Ren was designed around, "Upper class White Kid who joins ISIS and unironically admires the Empire."

I thought TFA had an interesting anti-hero's journey, with him being "tempted" by the lightside and family and finally overcoming it and embracing the darkness and his training at the climax. It's a good idea and there's not really any confusion about it at that point. Along with most other fans, I expected Rey to be a Skywalker and redeem the family line, with Kylo staying evil at least until the end of the last film.

But TLJ complicates those things with the odd team-up between Rey and Kylo, and the apparent fact that he is the very last Skywalker in the very last film in the Skywalker saga. I honestly don't know if Rian Johnson sees Kylo as a monster; if he does, then the force skype sessions and the camera and Rey longingly gazing upon Kylo's abs are kind of hard to explain.

Some fans think that Rey finally "closed the door" on him at the end, but the writers have put themselves into a precarious situation that wasn't necessitated by TFA. Do they really want to end the Skywalker line with a mass murderer who kills off the rest of his family before being defeated himself? Two movies in and I don't know what roles these people are supposed to have.

[CmdrKing]

Kylo is a very odd sort of villain that's defined by being pathetic despite his sheer power, and tragic despite his willing embrace of monstrosity.

There's a strong argument to be made that he's the most powerful Jedi we've seen in the series in many ways. He's done stuff on the physical side of the force that's well beyond anything Anakin or Luke did in their primes. But he's also wild, half-trained, and completely unwilling to focus or get over himself to harness that power. He aspires to be Darth Vader but ends up a fairly literal wannabe.

We can safely surmise that he's originally tempted to the Dark Side because of his descent from Vader: sure, he embraced him as a patron/inspiration after fully joining the First Order, but I suspect his original inner darkness was also fueled by that knowledge. He was a teenager, and heir to a powerful legacy: was not his destiny to embrace that legacy and bring peace and order to the galaxy? It would take strong guidance to keep him away from the easy path... and that's where the tragedy kicks in, because Luke and his parents completely fucked it up. And I think the story remains sympathetic to him because Rey up to this point has willingly embraced their framing: they want to save him, so she thinks he can be saved. But they want to save him because they feel responsible. Perhaps Kylo would always have embraced his inner fascist, but they certainly cemented it.

None of that is to take away from Kylo's evil. Like I said: he's had every chance to turn away, and at all of them he runs further in and becomes more the monster. At this point I think it'd be a shame to kill him because I think, by the time we rejoin the plot in Episode IX, that's what he'll want: a glorious death in battle. And when you're responsible for death tolls in the billions as Kylo Ren is, why the heck should you get to dictate your terms of death.

[CharlesPhipps]

I don't actually accept Luke's belief he's responsible. Mind you, I felt that it was an unnecessary complication to the story like Rey being attracted to her friends' murderer and torturer.

[CmdrKing]

Luke’s moment of weakness is completely understandable given his prior lightning-based experience with the Dark side, very human. But while it’s forgivable it’s definitely something he did and would feel guilty about.

[Winter]

Luke’s moment of weakness is completely understandable given his prior lightning-based experience with the Dark side, very human. But while it’s forgivable it’s definitely something he did and would feel guilty about.

I can't agree, for me Luke contemplating killing his own nephew in his sleep is on par with Spider-Man making a Deal with the Devil to undo his marriage in One More Day. Even if it was a case of the two fighting and Luke had him at his mercy, (much like what happened with Vader in Return of the Jedi) I would still dislike it as it goes against Luke's character development from the Original Trilogy.

I had the same issue when this sort of thing was done in Star Wars Legends and with Superman in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. The Knight in Shining Armor is seen as boring so he must be made into a grim and gritty anti-hero to be interesting even though what made the character so beloved is how they're the one who sees the best in people.

Maybe that wasn't the intention of the writers but, for me, that's how it feels. Here's a question, in both Last and BvS how often do you see Luke or Sups smile? And when they smile does it feel like it use to or does it feel more like someone who feels defeated.

This is just my opinion but for me Luke thinking about killing his nephew who he, by all accounts, helped raised is really out of character and joins the ranks of Spider-Man's Devil Deal as one of the dumbest character moments in fictional history. No disrespect meant, this is just how I see it.

[CharlesPhipps]

Luke’s moment of weakness is completely understandable given his prior lightning-based experience with the Dark side, very human. But while it’s forgivable it’s definitely something he did and would feel guilty about.

I don't think its remotely believable from a man who didn't believe his father, who murdered his surrogate parents as well as whole planets plus cut off his hand, deserved to die. I don't think that Luke would ever think of murdering his own nephew for being unpleasant to the point he MIGHT do something evil in the future.

It's not so much, "Batman would never kill someone." It's more, "Batman would never kill someone's parents with a gun in a dark alley."

Luke could be flawed in many many ways but killing a family member because they're evil is definitely not one of them. Weirdly, I think the exact opposite is a much better motivation. Luke almost killing Kylo Ren? Not possible.

Luke ignoring that his nephew is a homicidal psychotic monster to the point he kills a bunch of his fellow students? Because he believes "Love will redeem?" I can believe that.