South Africa preparing to go full Zimbabwe...

[CharlesPhipps]

The issue is also very different from pure direct seizure.

And the larger issue is the attempts to do land reform previously resulted in the failure of those regions of land and their buying back by the white owners. So there's a lot of history which is being ignored about land redistribution in SA.

[Darth Wedgius]

The issue is also very different from pure direct seizure.

And the larger issue is the attempts to do land reform previously resulted in the failure of those regions of land and their buying back by the white owners. So there's a lot of history which is being ignored about land redistribution in SA.

I might misunderstand what you're saying. I think you're saying that the SA government would seize land with compensation, and the white former owners would later buy it back for a fraction of the compensation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But there are at least three points I think must be considered.

One, during the time the farm was seized the white farmers didn't have the income from the farm, and people need income for shelter, food, etc.

Two, the farm could be in a worse state at the point of buy-back (insufficient crop rotation, equipment sold off, equipment and infrastructure inadequately maintained, etc.) so the difference between compensation and re-purchase price might not be profit.

Three, it sounds like a lot of the seizures this time will be without compensation, or at least without non-zero "compensation." If I were a farmer being asked to spend a lot of money to buy a farm, fix it up,and get it working, knowing that at anytime it could be taken and I might be left with nothing to see for it, I might have second thoughts. The same if I were anyone considering investments in South Africa of any kind, from locating factories there to upgrading existing operations.

If you mean instead that this discussion of seizures ignores the long history of minority white rule and abusive treatment of blacks in South Africa, that is different of course.

In any case the farmers may not be the worst victims here. My understanding is that the Zimbabwean dispossessed white farmers were sometimes welcomed by nearby countries.

The seizures were devastating from Zimbabwe, though; the farms were owned by whites but employed and fed a lot of blacks. I think SA is more developed and stable than Zimbabwe ever was and might learn from Zimbabwe a few things not to do, to avoid Zimbabwe's ruinous hyperinflation for example.

I hope so -- SA has about four times Zimbabwe's population. SA also has stores of weapons-grade uranium.

[CharlesPhipps]

I feel like we're in an odd situation because this is a terrible idea and is not going to help the poor blacks of South Africa. I'm not defending it but I also think turning on the air raid siren is unnecessary too.

I've talked at length with both black and white associates in South Africa about it and basically their reaction to this is it's a blatant political ploy. It's designed to shore up the government by having them talk about LAND REFORM which is very popular in populist circles. However, the thing is the government is not doing anything to make sure it actually succeeds and it's going to be a colossal failure unlike some of the land reform which was compensated.

Everyone has basically said the land will be seized, redistributed over years, given to people who don't have the money or experience to work it properly and then lost to the banks or corporate institutions (white owned btw) who will then sell it back to the corporate farmers who owned it originally. This isn't going to be settlements in Israel with people ready and willing to die over it.

Why will this happen? Because it has happened before as even the compensated ones have been far below the value and not exactly ruined the (corporate) farmers involved.

No one is particularly of the mind this is going to be a massive disaster (inside SA at least). It's just political theater. People outside of SA are seemingly more concerned about it than the people inside, perhaps because they recognize it for the stunt it is rather than a massive restructuring of society. It's a bell designed to bring voters for an unpopular president but the simple fact is that land seizure has a hsitory in the country and the reaction from the farmers (who are rich corporatized landowners not poor farmers) has been, "We're going to do some lawsuits over this."

I think there's a certain level of "Exotic Africa" going on in how people think this is supposed to go.

[Antiboyscout]

I feel like we're in an odd situation because this is a terrible idea and is not going to help the poor blacks of South Africa. I'm not defending it but I also think turning on the air raid siren is unnecessary too.

I've talked at length with both black and white associates in South Africa about it and basically their reaction to this is it's a blatant political ploy. It's designed to shore up the government by having them talk about LAND REFORM which is very popular in populist circles. However, the thing is the government is not doing anything to make sure it actually succeeds and it's going to be a colossal failure unlike some of the land reform which was compensated.

Everyone has basically said the land will be seized, redistributed over years, given to people who don't have the money or experience to work it properly and then lost to the banks or corporate institutions (white owned btw) who will then sell it back to the corporate farmers who owned it originally. This isn't going to be settlements in Israel with people ready and willing to die over it.

Why will this happen? Because it has happened before as even the compensated ones have been far below the value and not exactly ruined the (corporate) farmers involved.

No one is particularly of the mind this is going to be a massive disaster (inside SA at least). It's just political theater. People outside of SA are seemingly more concerned about it than the people inside, perhaps because they recognize it for the stunt it is rather than a massive restructuring of society. It's a bell designed to bring voters for an unpopular president but the simple fact is that land seizure has a hsitory in the country and the reaction from the farmers (who are rich corporatized landowners not poor farmers) has been, "We're going to do some lawsuits over this."

I think there's a certain level of "Exotic Africa" going on in how people think this is supposed to go.

We'll see.
Best case scenario is an economic recession
Worst case is a genocide

let's hope the land gets back to white hands quickly and painlessly.

[CharlesPhipps]

We'll see.
Best case scenario is an economic recession
Worst case is a genocide

let's hope the land gets back to white hands quickly and painlessly.

Or, maybe, the land could be bought fairly and given to people who will have the resources to use it properly to better help the poverty in the nation?

The issue here is basically small farming isn't profitable nowadays. Not that "whites" need land in South Africa.

[J!!]

let's hope the land gets back to white hands quickly and painlessly.

That last bit sounded a lot more racist than you probably intended, may want to rephrase.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I think he knows exactly what he said. -__-

[Yukaphile]

I gotta agree.

[G-Man]

let's hope the land gets back to white hands quickly and painlessly.

That last bit sounded a lot more racist than you probably intended, may want to rephrase.

Not the only thing that sounds racist:

The issue here is basically small farming isn't profitable nowadays. Not that "whites" need land in South Africa.

[Yukaphile]

Yeah, it implies that "whites" are too good for the shithole that Africa is, isn't it? Yet I don't think CharlesPhipps is like that. This is how our language is just... so archaic, so primitive and clumsy. It's not just articulating what you mean, it's what you don't mean or subconsciously mean that others pick up on. Fuck, I wish we had telepathy instead. Just sharing of pure feelings and direct thoughts. If only.