Batman: Mask of the Phantasm

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I'm of the mind that it would complicate the RICO case which was huge. Investigative journalism probably would have linked him to the other murders. Then that would probably compromise the RICO case.

[CharlesPhipps]

I still don't get the insistence that what Dent did as Two-Face would somehow invalidate what he did prior? Considering what happened to him, it's very straightforward that he went crazy because of that and anything that happened afterwards was a result of that.

Famed but mentally unstable prosecutor goes on killing spree, ending with attempted murder of a child.

Yeah, I can't see how that would complicate the attempts to take down the mob.

[Admiral X]

Except he didn't lose it until after he was kidnapped and horribly burned and his SO was blown to bits.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

There is a bit of symbolic concern aside from the trial complications. That's something Batman had a lot of concern about.

He went crazy yeah, but you can't just legally assume that. Then you have a bunch of criminals that have opportunity to complicate things saying that he was involved in the crimes the whole time.

[CharlesPhipps]

Except he didn't lose it until after he was kidnapped and horribly burned and his SO was blown to bits.

Eh, the Animated Series (tie in to the original topic) pointed out how this means any lawyer can tear him to shreds. "If he's crazy now, he could always have been crazy." Mind you, again, the mob financed terrorism so they're screwed once their ties to the Joker come out.

In more emotional terms, I think Batman wanted to preserve the memory of the man Harvey used to be for Rachel's sake.

Gordon, by contrast, could give two ****s the moment he came after his boy.

[Jonathan101]

I still don't get the insistence that what Dent did as Two-Face would somehow invalidate what he did prior? Considering what happened to him, it's very straightforward that he went crazy because of that and anything that happened afterwards was a result of that.

Legally speaking this would be a serious issue, and it actually does pop up in other cop / lawyer films and shows.

Basically, the mobs lawyers were always likely to argue that Dent used shady, perhaps even illegal methods to go after their clients (arguably true, to be fair- he WAS party to Batman kidnapping the accountant from a foreign country, after all), and this can be used as powerful circumstantial evidence for that- if all it took was "one bad day" (sic) for him to go on a killing spree, including murdering one of the defendants (Sal Moroni), then it has to be asked if he was ever stable to begin with, and in turn ALL of his previous conduct will have to be scrutinised, which at the very least will cost a huge amount of time and money and give the mobs lawyers further leverage to have the cases dropped or at least let their clients out on bail (the mid-level ones and lower who aren't already).

The Joker killed and traumatised lots of people, but only Dent went crazy, so the fact that the Joker was the one who pushed him over the edge doesn't really count for anything other than suggest that he wasn't the shining "white knight" that everyone thought he was. Doesn't matter if his actual practice prior to this was all above board (and as it happens, it wasn't); sufficient doubt has now been raised about his mental state as well as his ethics to seriously undermine the trial. Yes, it isn't necessarily enough to sink it entirely, but it gives the mob a chance to regroup and find a way out (and when mobsters look for a way out, bodies start piling up).

[CharlesPhipps]

Let's also note that RICO is controversial in real life because it is, "arresting people for hanging around criminals and places of crime." It needs to be rock solid to begin with and Dent explains that it was never going to be a very good case. Dent says his actions are designed primarily to just cause some of the lower levels ones to break and become witnesses while also get crooks off the street long enough to shore up Gotham's stability.

It's only Dent's martyrdom that propels it so it seems no one gets bail or released. Because, again, now the mob is tied to the Joker (who blew up a hospital) and all of their money has been taken by Batman/The Crooked Accountant/Joker. The fact Joker burned most of that money also has a big effect.

In simple terms, the mob can't fight any of the charges because they're suddenly broke. Plus instead of being hookers and blow, they're people who blew up a building full of kids and innocents.

[Jonathan101]

Yeah. I wonder if Jokers' plans to turn Gotham into a world without rules kind of backfired with that one- if the mob are broke, then he's the only major criminal in town, and that actually makes it harder to sustain his chaotic evil dystopia rather than easier, at least in the long-term.

If he hadn't done that, then even if / when he was finally caught, Batman and the police would still be under pressure and the situation would be more tenuous, but between him and Dent killing leading mobsters and destroying their livelihood, Gotham actually became more manageable in a weird way.

The Joker was the real hero- not the one they deserved, but the one they needed.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Yeah. I wonder if Jokers' plans to turn Gotham into a world without rules kind of backfired with that one- if the mob are broke, then he's the only major criminal in town, and that actually makes it harder to sustain his chaotic evil dystopia rather than easier, at least in the long-term.

The only thing I think initiated Joker's operation was that he saw what was happening between organized crime and Batman. He isn't setting out to be a super villain he just wants to play with Batman. My guess is that he'd probably just be done with it after that was all over.

[CharlesPhipps]

Yeah. I wonder if Jokers' plans to turn Gotham into a world without rules kind of backfired with that one- if the mob are broke, then he's the only major criminal in town, and that actually makes it harder to sustain his chaotic evil dystopia rather than easier, at least in the long-term.

Well Joker doesn't think long term. He's fully capable of just blowing up skyscrapers if he gets bored. He wants Batman to kill him too.

If he hadn't done that, then even if / when he was finally caught, Batman and the police would still be under pressure and the situation would be more tenuous, but between him and Dent killing leading mobsters and destroying their livelihood, Gotham actually became more manageable in a weird way.

The Joker was the real hero- not the one they deserved, but the one they needed.

That is the somewhat wasted plot of Dark Knight Rises that Batman has cleaned up Gotham City and "won" in the beginning -- so Bruce Wayne just becomes a weird recluse, irritated at his own success.

Which tying back to Mask of the Phantasm is an interesting case as Bruce doesn't NEED to be Batman to do good but who is without it?