Batman: Mask of the Phantasm

[CharlesPhipps]

The only thing I think initiated Joker's operation was that he saw what was happening between organized crime and Batman. He isn't setting out to be a super villain he just wants to play with Batman. My guess is that he'd probably just be done with it after that was all over.

Joker is also bored and nihilistic. He's fine if Batman runs him over or kills him. Nothing matters to him so why not do incredibly destructive things?

[Jonathan101]

Joker is more than bored and nihilistic- he DOES have an ideology of sorts, twisted though it is, and he DOES have a vision for how he wants Gotham to be and a philosophy on how he thinks humanity really is.

Obviously the urge to be destructive and chaotic is there, but it is separate from his nihilistic outlook- just because you think nothing matters doesn't mean you necessarily want to rob, kill, terrorise etc.- and he also seems to have a grandiose sense of self, at the very least thinking he has a superior insight into how the world works and that he and Batman are both "special" in some way. He's fine if BATMAN kills him because that is a psychological victory, but he wouldn't want to, you know, be killed crossing the street or anything. He absolutely IS setting out to be a supervillain and he almost says as such even ("this city deserves a better class of criminal").

I'd rather say that Batman "inspired" him, gave him a purpose or new lease on life, albeit in the worst possible way.

And yeah, TDKR making Gotham peaceful was a dumb move. Should have been about Batman on the run from the police while the situation deteriorates further. But Nolan gotta Nolan.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Different renditions of the Joker somewhat compartmentalize different parts of his lunacy. Alan Moore's take made an effort to turn the psyche inside out so you get a personalized view of how he is crazy. Frank Miller says that he disagreed with Moore and believed the Joker to be much more Satanic. I'm not sure where Nolan got the nihilist idea from, but his rendition and Joker's arch in the Arkham games deals a lot with how obsessed he is with Batman. The DCAU understandably just makes everything he does beneath him all in an effort to just have fun.

[CharlesPhipps]

I think the Joker is best with a simple view.

"Why does he do it?"

"Because he thinks its funny. He's even worse when he's trying to make you laugh."

(The audience)

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I just like it when it speaks to his competence (or maybe resilience). Each rendition more or less has something to say on that.

[Jonathan101]

The Joker can be like that, but he usually has more complex or additional motives beneath the surfaces and Ledger Joker specifically definitely is motivated by more than just "he thinks it's funny"; he is trying to send a message and prove a point about what he thinks people are "really" like.

I don't think the Joker works just a guy who is solely out of be funny in a twisted way. Some of his best stories wouldn't work if he didn't have additional goals as well, even if they were petty ones like vanity or revenge, plus he wouldn't be so obsessed with Batman if he was just after the laughs. This is what separates the Joker knock-offs from the real deal.

Funnily enough, the original Golden Age Joker was more of a plain old crafty, murderous thief who happened to look like a clown, not giving a damn about comedy as much.

Nihilistic Joker comes from The Killing Joke, and Nolan also drew inspiration from the artist Francis Bacon, btw.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Nihilistic Joker comes from The Killing Joke, and Nolan also drew inspiration from the artist Francis Bacon, btw.

You're right, I was alluding to Moore's psychotic Joker as a personal speculation of him, but the whole one bad day thing is really nihilistic.

Though Nolan's is actually different I feel. The personal element is seemingly dismissed, and that is evident by his obscured identity through three different stories of how he got his scars. It makes sense that instead of a comedian he was a CIA trained interrogator, but honestly the presentational realization of that would not be as fun.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

So how does everybody feel about this movie being a definitive Batman movie?

[CharlesPhipps]

So how does everybody feel about this movie being a definitive Batman movie?

It's certainly a good movie but I wouldn't necessarily say definitive. It's a Year One sort of deal where it's about BECOMING Batman.

But very little about Bruce BEING Batman.

[FaxModem1]

Mask of the Phantasm is very much noir. This scene alone elevates it this Batman story to another level:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjAFbEP0wK4

A man pleading to let go of his childhood burdens, and due to fate, his neuroses, or the needs of Gotham, he can't. It's beautiful and heavy stuff.