What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

It's interesting to see such a consensus here. It feels to me like many who liked the film have just given up trying discuss it. I agree with the (non-toxic) negative opinions of the direction of the franchise, but it's a real shame that so much anticipation and joy has been sucked right out of the franchise. It feels crazy to not be looking forward at the future of Star Wars with a lot of anticipation, and yet it's really hard to feel excited about the direction they're heading.

By contrast Yoda gives a big speech and, going over the Prequels, the Original Trilogy and the Clone Wars I can only really recall one speech he gave which was the "My Allie is the Force." Which is less of a speech and more of him trying to get Luke to grasp something that he still doesn't understand.

Maybe that's just me but I felt the speech with Yoda was rather hand fisted and for me (seriously this is just my opinion here) I felt that the puppet was really unconvincing and took out of the film.

Some of what Yoda was saying was pretty solid advice, by Hollywood standards anyway, and reflects the hopes that a lot of teachers, parents, and mentors have for their students/children. My problem with it is that it rings false in the movie and mostly just ticks me off. Luke isn't Rey's master. Luke never trained her, everything he told her was half-wrong at best, and any sort of "relationship" between the two characters is totally unjustified by the interactions we see.

Not to mention that Rey has never shown any signs of needing any training whatsoever. It's easy enough for her to surpass Luke with the writing stacked in her favor. In fact, it would make a lot of sense for Rey to despise the Luke we see in TLJ, given that the only Luke she's known is a gross hermit who started a powerful Force user down the dark side then ran away and hid on an island to think about how bad the Jedi are. Her warm remembrances of him at the end of the film ring hollow, and the reason why she reacts that way is because she's just that perfect.

[Winter]

I agree with the (non-toxic) negative opinions of the direction of the franchise, but it's a real shame that so much anticipation and joy has been sucked right out of the franchise.

Yeah, talking about Star Wars' series isn't a fun as it use to be. I remember when the Prequels were coming out and even with their mixed reception most fans I spoke to were still looking forward to the next film. Hell, I remember when The Clone Wars Movie was announced and while the general reaction from fans was "Really?" people were still interested in seeing it and the TV show that was to follow the film.

Today, while I know many fans who are looking forward to Episode 9 it feels like the energy that was present during the Prequel Era has been sucked out which has not been helped by the more toxic parts of the fandom. Right now, the Star Wars fandom is Kirkwall from Dragon Age 2, in that while their Are good people with valid points to like and dislike The Last Jedi the ones you run into the most are just plain awful.

And the one side you've got fans who are of the opinion that if you don't enjoy this movie you're either a sexist bigot or someone wouldn't know true art if it tapped you on your slopping forehead. And on the other side you have people calling anyone who enjoys this film a feminazi who only like this film because it applies to SJW propaganda.

I dislike this film for the poor treatment of characters I have loved for most of my life, a number of moments I see as idiot plot moments, characters being rewarded for selfish behavior and repeating to many of plot points from The Empire Strikes Back. I also feel that the ideas that this film address were done before in Star Wars and better, (discluding Luke turning to the Dark Side as I don't think that's ever been done well). I also feel that Rey is a weak character especially when compared to Mara Jade and Kylo Ren and the rest of the First Order is just a shameless knock off of the Empire without any of the menace they possessed (Hell I think the Separatist in the Prequels were more threatening then the First Order).

But that's just my opinion and I am open to just talking with someone about what they like about Last. But if I go over any issue I am either called a sexist pig or a brainwashed woman who doesn't know any better (the consequences of keeping my gender ambiguous while online )

I know cooler heads will prevail in time so we can all just talk about about Last without starting an argument but I think this toxic atmosphere in the fandom is the main reason why so much of the fun has been sucked out of Star Wars.

As for the future of the series I think MissKittyFantastico said it best.

Where I'm at now is that I think what I feel about Last Jedi is going to depend a lot on what happens with Ep IX. Last Jedi felt like a massive swerve from where it seemed like the trilogy was going after TFA, but we don't know the plan - I have to think even JJ "Let's just wing it" Abrams thought to devise some kind of trilogy sketch when he was handed Star Wars. If Last Jedi turns out to fit into the trilogy in a satisfying way, all good - even the lack of worldbuilding wouldn't matter if it's retro'd in later in a way that isn't jarring. If, though, (and I'd like to be proven wrong, but I do wonder) it turns out that Rian let off his landmines all over conventional expectations without a trilogy plan in mind, and it's left to Ep IX to pick up the pieces and wring some kind of satisfying three-film conclusion out of it... well, dick move Rian. Remains to be seen.

[CharlesPhipps]

Rey seems like she's a fine character to me but the problem is that we never get anyone actually talking to her.

People talk AT Rey.

Literally, I think the only people who have had an actual back and forth conversation with her in the series are Han Solo and BB8.

One of the biggest issues of the Last Jedi is Luke insults, belittles, and lectures our heroine for the entire time he's onscreen while she's too respectful to say anything back about it. It's a waste of an entire movie for her.

It's why Han's 5 minutes of screentime with Rey are more moving and human than anything else in the sequel.

[Winter]

Rey seems like she's a fine character to me but the problem is that we never get anyone actually talking to her.

People talk AT Rey.

Literally, I think the only people who have had an actual back and forth conversation with her in the series are Han Solo and BB8.

One of the biggest issues of the Last Jedi is Luke insults, belittles, and lectures our heroine for the entire time he's onscreen while she's too respectful to say anything back about it. It's a waste of an entire movie for her.

It's why Han's 5 minutes of screentime with Rey are more moving and human than anything else in the sequel.

Sorry to sound like a broken record but this again why Mara Jade is, IMO, a better character then Rey. The scenes between her, Luke, Leia, Karrde, Thrawn, C'baoth and even Han and Lando was more human and less grand speech then what we got between Rey, Luke, Ren and Leia.

My favorite scene in The Thrawn Trilogy is a little conversation between Luke and Mara when Luke opens up and reveals he's sacred about the idea of teaching Leia's children since he has Zero experience teaching anyone in the ways of the Force. Sure he's taught Leia a thing or two but Leia isn't really his student, she's his sister and he taught her a few tricks but Leia spends most of her time playing politic.

What I like is how Mara responds to Luke, in that she does her best to assure him but in her own way. She doesn't say how good he is or he will be a great Jedi Master she simply points out that he will teach as anyone would. By experience.

Another point is Mara's and Karrde's first scene in the Trilogy where Karrde is talking about promoting Mara to his second in command due to her competences in handling everything. It's really the only time in the Trilogy anyone talks about how great Mara is and is followed by her showing more of her character through how she would use her new position and give us a hatred for his dislike of Luke.

With Rey, any time anyone not named Han or BB-8 it always seems to be some sort of great speech about how much she sucks or how great she is and that's how she often responds in kind.

Not helping matters is how quickly Rey and Ren seem to fall for each other. The film keeps playing up how "Romantic" it is and all I can think of is, He Murdered Her Surrogate Father and Put Her Best Friend in a Coma a few Days Ago AT BEST, A Few Hours Ago At WORST!!! And NO ONE, not Han, Leia or Luke have talked about how Ren use to be a good person and even Ren himself says that he is a monster with no redeeming qualities.

When Luke sought to befriend Mara it was because she showed noble qualities such as her loyalty to Karrde and even then it took them almost a year, in Universe, before they became friends vs. Rey and Ren who both became friends in less then a day. And all that was needed was Ren admitting he was a monster!?!

You know Rey did not seem this gullible in Awakens so why is she easily tricked here. She fights Luke because he MIGHT have hurt "Ben" and is willing to risk her own life to redeem him. WHY!?!

I could have bought it if there was some sort of history between them before the film but nope, she's a nobody with no connection to anyone so yeah. Rey just decided that Ren was worth the risk just because.

Again, Luke did not think Mara was someone he Needed to redeem but rather someone he treated with respect due to her saving his life several times. And Mara only went looking for Luke to save Karrde from her boss and Luke was, ironically, the only person she could trust to help her. Rey, no reason to think that Ren was worth redeeming she just decided that he was redeemable.

Fans of the paring, no offince meant but I just don't get Rey and Ren. AND I'M A ROMANTIC!!!

[clearspira]

I agree with the (non-toxic) negative opinions of the direction of the franchise, but it's a real shame that so much anticipation and joy has been sucked right out of the franchise.

Yeah, talking about Star Wars' series isn't a fun as it use to be. I remember when the Prequels were coming out and even with their mixed reception most fans I spoke to were still looking forward to the next film. Hell, I remember when The Clone Wars Movie was announced and while the general reaction from fans was "Really?" people were still interested in seeing it and the TV show that was to follow the film.

Today, while I know many fans who are looking forward to Episode 9 it feels like the energy that was present during the Prequel Era has been sucked out which has not been helped by the more toxic parts of the fandom. Right now, the Star Wars fandom is Kirkwall from Dragon Age 2, in that while their Are good people with valid points to like and dislike The Last Jedi the ones you run into the most are just plain awful.

And the one side you've got fans who are of the opinion that if you don't enjoy this movie you're either a sexist bigot or someone wouldn't know true art if it tapped you on your slopping forehead. And on the other side you have people calling anyone who enjoys this film a feminazi who only like this film because it applies to SJW propaganda.

I dislike this film for the poor treatment of characters I have loved for most of my life, a number of moments I see as idiot plot moments, characters being rewarded for selfish behavior and repeating to many of plot points from The Empire Strikes Back. I also feel that the ideas that this film address were done before in Star Wars and better, (discluding Luke turning to the Dark Side as I don't think that's ever been done well). I also feel that Rey is a weak character especially when compared to Mara Jade and Kylo Ren and the rest of the First Order is just a shameless knock off of the Empire without any of the menace they possessed (Hell I think the Separatist in the Prequels were more threatening then the First Order).

But that's just my opinion and I am open to just talking with someone about what they like about Last. But if I go over any issue I am either called a sexist pig or a brainwashed woman who doesn't know any better (the consequences of keeping my gender ambiguous while online )

I know cooler heads will prevail in time so we can all just talk about about Last without starting an argument but I think this toxic atmosphere in the fandom is the main reason why so much of the fun has been sucked out of Star Wars.

As for the future of the series I think MissKittyFantastico said it best.

Where I'm at now is that I think what I feel about Last Jedi is going to depend a lot on what happens with Ep IX. Last Jedi felt like a massive swerve from where it seemed like the trilogy was going after TFA, but we don't know the plan - I have to think even JJ "Let's just wing it" Abrams thought to devise some kind of trilogy sketch when he was handed Star Wars. If Last Jedi turns out to fit into the trilogy in a satisfying way, all good - even the lack of worldbuilding wouldn't matter if it's retro'd in later in a way that isn't jarring. If, though, (and I'd like to be proven wrong, but I do wonder) it turns out that Rian let off his landmines all over conventional expectations without a trilogy plan in mind, and it's left to Ep IX to pick up the pieces and wring some kind of satisfying three-film conclusion out of it... well, dick move Rian. Remains to be seen.

I would argue that the Force Awakens had great good will and enthusiasm for it. The hate for it was nowhere near the Prequels because it actually is a well made film. Most of this negative thought has come with TLJ and the negative politics around it. What Kathleen thought that Force is Female T-shirt was going to achieve is incredible to me. What they thought hiring a man who admits to not being a Star Wars fan to direct Star Wars was going to achieve is incredible to me. If she had just shut up and let Rey's character not her genitals do the work like Lucas did with Leia and Amidala, and if they had gotten an actual fan to write this film as opposed to Rian Johnson, we would be so pumped for Episode 9 right now and that's a fact.

[Edvarius]

OK, while I know that the film had some weak points, honestly? I had a pretty good time while I was watching it. And I think there are things that the film did do well. Maybe my being fine with this movie is due to being somebody who never got into the EU material outside of the first KOTOR game and therefore had nothing to compare the movie sequels too other than the other movies. And it's more than likely that the EU stuff contradicts my theories and takeaways, but whatever.

I think my favorite scene during the movie was when Rey fell into the pit that was a place of strength for the Dark Side. When she goes up to the mirror like surface, and sees herself, forever. I love that scene because thinking about it that odd little thing kind of highlights something about the Dark Side quite well. When Luke goes to a place strong in the Dark Side on Dagoba, he is told that what is in there is only what you bring with you. And when he decapitates the "Vader", he sees himself. When Rey is in front of the mirror, she saw herself, over and over. When she asked who her parents were, the Dark Side could only show her herself, because that's what the Dark Side is. Focus upon the self. Ideological sociopathy. It's something seen in the codes. There's something the Sith Code has over and over again that Jedi doesn't: the self. It's a conflict between a connected harmonious whole and those that reject anything that does not service themselves.

As for the way things ended up, I actually think it's kind of interesting that the leader of the Order is dead and the only person at the reins now is the very emotionally unstable Darth Weenie. It doesn't leave the bad guys in a much better position than the good guys are in right now. OK yeah, they have more resources and ships, but it's going to be a while before that power can be consolidated under the new leadership, especially if the temper tantrums their new "glorious" leader is prone to continue. He does not have the intelligence or the charisma to hold an army together, and it seems like it would take very little time for people to start readying daggers for his back. Mind you, that's probably not where the series is going to be headed. But I do want to see where it does lead. Which is more than I can say for how TFA left me feeling. Really, the main reason I went to see this one was my dad wanted to.

[Winter]

OK, while I know that the film had some weak points, honestly? I had a pretty good time while I was watching it. And I think there are things that the film did do well. Maybe my being fine with this movie is due to being somebody who never got into the EU material outside of the first KOTOR game and therefore had nothing to compare the movie sequels too other than the other movies. And it's more than likely that the EU stuff contradicts my theories and takeaways, but whatever.

I think my favorite scene during the movie was when Rey fell into the pit that was a place of strength for the Dark Side. When she goes up to the mirror like surface, and sees herself, forever. I love that scene because thinking about it that odd little thing kind of highlights something about the Dark Side quite well. When Luke goes to a place strong in the Dark Side on Dagoba, he is told that what is in there is only what you bring with you. And when he decapitates the "Vader", he sees himself. When Rey is in front of the mirror, she saw herself, over and over. When she asked who her parents were, the Dark Side could only show her herself, because that's what the Dark Side is. Focus upon the self. Ideological sociopathy. It's something seen in the codes. There's something the Sith Code has over and over again that Jedi doesn't: the self. It's a conflict between a connected harmonious whole and those that reject anything that does not service themselves.

As for the way things ended up, I actually think it's kind of interesting that the leader of the Order is dead and the only person at the reins now is the very emotionally unstable Darth Weenie. It doesn't leave the bad guys in a much better position than the good guys are in right now. OK yeah, they have more resources and ships, but it's going to be a while before that power can be consolidated under the new leadership, especially if the temper tantrums their new "glorious" leader is prone to continue. He does not have the intelligence or the charisma to hold an army together, and it seems like it would take very little time for people to start readying daggers for his back. Mind you, that's probably not where the series is going to be headed. But I do want to see where it does lead. Which is more than I can say for how TFA left me feeling. Really, the main reason I went to see this one was my dad wanted to.

Let me just say that This is a really good argument in defense of this film and I will admit that I do kinda like the cave scene in Last. My only real issues with it are, I wish there was no narration from Rey during this bit as I don't feel it added anything and that I wish Rey had more scenes like this throughout the movie.

For me it feels like Rey got the short end of the stick in Last as most of her screen time is more about her trying to make Luke and Ren better and being used as an extension of the conflict between the two of them. My last issue with the cave scene is that it to quickly gives way to being about the conflict between Luke and Ren. Rey even fights Luke for him possibly hurting Ren instead fighting for herself which I would have found a Lot more engaging.

But that is just how I see it and I would be interested in what you think about the Ren and Luke conflict and Rey's character.

[CharlesPhipps]

Sorry to sound like a broken record but this again why Mara Jade is, IMO, a better character then Rey. The scenes between her, Luke, Leia, Karrde, Thrawn, C'baoth and even Han and Lando was more human and less grand speech then what we got between Rey, Luke, Ren and Leia.

That's a bit like saying Frodo is better than Conan. They're not remotely similar characters so a comparison is pointless.

Mind you, I think of Rey as the Jaina substitute so I'm defensive of her.

With Rey, any time anyone not named Han or BB-8 it always seems to be some sort of great speech about how much she sucks or how great she is and that's how she often responds in kind.

Its irritating because Rey shows no sign of being arrogant. She just wants to help the Resistance and save the galaxy.

Not helping matters is how quickly Rey and Ren seem to fall for each other. The film keeps playing up how "Romantic" it is and all I can think of is, He Murdered Her Surrogate Father and Put Her Best Friend in a Coma a few Days Ago AT BEST, A Few Hours Ago At WORST!!! And NO ONE, not Han, Leia or Luke have talked about how Ren use to be a good person and even Ren himself says that he is a monster with no redeeming qualities.

I hated that part of the Last Jedi.

You know Rey did not seem this gullible in Awakens so why is she easily tricked here. She fights Luke because he MIGHT have hurt "Ben" and is willing to risk her own life to redeem him. WHY!?!

She goes to defeat Snoke and redeem Ben because Luke isn't doing it. Honestly, I'm with her on this. He behaves like a spoiled child.

I could have bought it if there was some sort of history between them before the film but nope, she's a nobody with no connection to anyone so yeah. Rey just decided that Ren was worth the risk just because.

Because she believes in the Jedi way. Funny, she seems to know it better than Luke.

Mind you, I hate Reylo.

Mostly becaue I think it seems set up because Rey and Finn apparently won't go down with some of the demographic.

*my extremely cynical side showing*

[Madner Kami]

I think there are two rather simple and obvious things to do, to fix TLJ. Well, maybe three:

1. ) Remove the Casino-World subplot alltogether and allocate that running time to Rey and Luke.
2. ) Set TFA and TLJ either further apart in time, to setup the stage for a situation where the Rebellion can't go anywhere for help (as is) and maybe use the time gained by removing Casino-World and dedicate it to some training montages of Rey learning to dabble in the Force more, where there's also a chance for Kylo to insert himself and develop the Reylo-relationship, like... AT ALL.
   Alternatively, keep both movies close together in time, but make it an actual situation where the Rebellion runs to get help, but always gets intercepted by the chasing fleet just before they can setup a proper defense, actually forcing them to stay on the run in a sensible way.
3. ) Remove Rose. At the very least, remove her stupid decission to save Finn and if you want to keep Finn around for future movies, allow Luke to interfere instead, setting up a better final showdown between Luke and Kylo, where Luke appears out of nowhere, ejects Finn, kills the omegamegamega-cannon and then confronts Kylo, dying as a real hero.

[G-Man]

One problem with films that people dislike is that we often get long nitpicks about everything wrong with the film when usually it is only a few major problems that really screw it up, and people are just displacing their rage because they have a hard time articulating the problems.

I think the problems with The Last Jedi are as follows:

(1) The general paradigm is reset too much to the original trilogy paradigm (few small resistance fighters against the Empire/First Order). It misses an opportunity to tell a different story (if TLJ had been Empire Strikes Back, but for the First Order running from Republic fleets, that would be interesting).

(2) Too many previous plot threads were abandoned. (I know that some YouTube commenter pointed out that we had set-ups without payoffs and pay-offs without set-ups). Rey did not have to be related to someone, but there could have been some backstory in there to explain why everyone seemed to recognize her (e.g. Luke found her when searching for potential Jedi and had her hidden away as a backup if his students turned or got killed).

(3) Too many people behaved stupidly but were portrayed as being in the right. The problem with Rose is that she acts like a 10-year-old fangirl. That's not a problem in and of itself, but the movie portrays this as if it is positive. Holdo behaves in a way to make lots of people question her loyalty but this is never portrayed as having been a mistake nor is she blamed for anything.

(4) Too many plot threads are underdeveloped or unsatisfying. Snoke dies in a pointless twist. Leia suddenly reveals that she knows how to use the Force to fly through space, but this is promptly forgotten and never comes up again. I think the real reason why people are annoyed by the "Mary Poppins" scene is not that it's unrealistic, or that it's a power we've never seen before, or that there is a plot hole involved (Leia could have trained in the 30 years since RotJ) it's that the scene doesn't matter. If Leia had been rescued by a droid instead, or been blown into the hallway instead of into space, the entire rest of the movie could play out the exact same way and nothing would change. Luke's entire conflict with Ben Solo in the past occurs merely because Ben, in effect, set off Luke's "evil detector." This is the equivalent of "tell, don't show."