What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

[Worffan101]

I still hate the prequels and maintain my opinion that ME3 was great right up until the ending.

I doubt that TLJ will be remembered fondly, as a lot of the debate seems to be driven not by the film's actual merits but by one's political position, and I suspect that Episode IX will not make as much money as TFA or TLJ did.

The main problem with debating this damn movie is that pretty much every forum for debate I've run into up to and including private chats doesn't allow for any nuance. Either you're on the left, in which case the film is perfect and a work of subtle genius, or you're on the right, in which case the film is completely irredeemable because TEH WIMMINZ AND SJWS RUINED IT WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!! There's no room for "This thing had a decent idea but has deep-seated structural, character, and dialogue flaws that kill its only interesting subplot out of 3 and is further marred by tonal inconsistency, poor pacing that makes the film feel bloated, an exhaustingly self-serious score and tone, and the overuse of bad CGI", there's no room for "I like that they're making the gender balance a bit more even and giving Laura Dern some work, but they wrote Admiral Holdo like a soccer mom, didn't even give her a uniform, and then ruined the only genuinely interesting new character (Rose) by turning her into a cheap love interest for no clear reason" or "I think the stuff with Luke and Rey could've been really good with some touch-ups to the dialogue, more time to resonate, and actually watching movies other than A New Hope because it's like Luke lost all of his character development between 6 and 8".

And that pisses me the fuck off.

[Karha of Honor]

I still hate the prequels and maintain my opinion that ME3 was great right up until the ending.

I doubt that TLJ will be remembered fondly, as a lot of the debate seems to be driven not by the film's actual merits but by one's political position, and I suspect that Episode IX will not make as much money as TFA or TLJ did.

The main problem with debating this damn movie is that pretty much every forum for debate I've run into up to and including private chats doesn't allow for any nuance. Either you're on the left, in which case the film is perfect and a work of subtle genius, or you're on the right, in which case the film is completely irredeemable because TEH WIMMINZ AND SJWS RUINED IT WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!! There's no room for "This thing had a decent idea but has deep-seated structural, character, and dialogue flaws that kill its only interesting subplot out of 3 and is further marred by tonal inconsistency, poor pacing that makes the film feel bloated, an exhaustingly self-serious score and tone, and the overuse of bad CGI", there's no room for "I like that they're making the gender balance a bit more even and giving Laura Dern some work, but they wrote Admiral Holdo like a soccer mom, didn't even give her a uniform, and then ruined the only genuinely interesting new character (Rose) by turning her into a cheap love interest for no clear reason" or "I think the stuff with Luke and Rey could've been really good with some touch-ups to the dialogue, more time to resonate, and actually watching movies other than A New Hope because it's like Luke lost all of his character development between 6 and 8".

And that pisses me the fuck off.

Why should anyone care about gender balance in SW?

[Madner Kami]

I still hate the prequels and maintain my opinion that ME3 was great right up until the ending.

I doubt that TLJ will be remembered fondly, as a lot of the debate seems to be driven not by the film's actual merits but by one's political position, and I suspect that Episode IX will not make as much money as TFA or TLJ did.

The main problem with debating this damn movie is that pretty much every forum for debate I've run into up to and including private chats doesn't allow for any nuance. Either you're on the left, in which case the film is perfect and a work of subtle genius, or you're on the right, in which case the film is completely irredeemable because TEH WIMMINZ AND SJWS RUINED IT WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!! There's no room for "This thing had a decent idea but has deep-seated structural, character, and dialogue flaws that kill its only interesting subplot out of 3 and is further marred by tonal inconsistency, poor pacing that makes the film feel bloated, an exhaustingly self-serious score and tone, and the overuse of bad CGI", there's no room for "I like that they're making the gender balance a bit more even and giving Laura Dern some work, but they wrote Admiral Holdo like a soccer mom, didn't even give her a uniform, and then ruined the only genuinely interesting new character (Rose) by turning her into a cheap love interest for no clear reason" or "I think the stuff with Luke and Rey could've been really good with some touch-ups to the dialogue, more time to resonate, and actually watching movies other than A New Hope because it's like Luke lost all of his character development between 6 and 8".

And that pisses me the fuck off.

Why should anyone care about gender balance in SW?

Because it's 2018™ or something.

[Karha of Honor]

I still hate the prequels and maintain my opinion that ME3 was great right up until the ending.

I doubt that TLJ will be remembered fondly, as a lot of the debate seems to be driven not by the film's actual merits but by one's political position, and I suspect that Episode IX will not make as much money as TFA or TLJ did.

The main problem with debating this damn movie is that pretty much every forum for debate I've run into up to and including private chats doesn't allow for any nuance. Either you're on the left, in which case the film is perfect and a work of subtle genius, or you're on the right, in which case the film is completely irredeemable because TEH WIMMINZ AND SJWS RUINED IT WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!! There's no room for "This thing had a decent idea but has deep-seated structural, character, and dialogue flaws that kill its only interesting subplot out of 3 and is further marred by tonal inconsistency, poor pacing that makes the film feel bloated, an exhaustingly self-serious score and tone, and the overuse of bad CGI", there's no room for "I like that they're making the gender balance a bit more even and giving Laura Dern some work, but they wrote Admiral Holdo like a soccer mom, didn't even give her a uniform, and then ruined the only genuinely interesting new character (Rose) by turning her into a cheap love interest for no clear reason" or "I think the stuff with Luke and Rey could've been really good with some touch-ups to the dialogue, more time to resonate, and actually watching movies other than A New Hope because it's like Luke lost all of his character development between 6 and 8".

And that pisses me the fuck off.

Why should anyone care about gender balance in SW?

Because it's 2018™ or something.

Is this a serious answer or one mocking the premise that gender balance matters in Star Wars?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

It's weird how representation in media is valued so distinctively almost in lieu of diversity, but it can be not very telling of overall real progress in inclusion.

Spread the idea of representative government and freedom for the whole world in a great pop culture brand >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of the world has no idea what was changed and why because they don\t live in post Trump USA

Kinda. Anyways representation is important I guess, but it's just weird how symbolic it seems.

[Fixer]

So this idea that The Last Jedi will go on to be acknowledged as a classic comes across like wishful thinking. If anything it feels like reaction has become more uniformly negative over the past year, and I personally just don't see the qualities that will make it stand out as a great film for years to come. Its pivotal place in the franchise and potential effect on the rest of the franchise also ensures that it will be a hated film for years unless JJ Abrams pulls off a miracle and somehow ties it all together in a satisfying way.

Well we have JJ's excellent record on creating satisfying conclusions to bolster our expectations. Hussah.

The ME3 comparison is an apt one as well since the damage it did to the franchise and the general good will given to the creators. When you do a follow up to something that divisive it needs not only to be good enough to stand on its own, it needs to be an apology for the mistakes made before. The death of Mass Effect with Andromeda should have been a lesson learned but everyone is still making the same mistakes.

Coming back to an earlier point that was discussed: Realism. One of the problems that crept into Star Wars in ROTJ, was slapstick or physical comedy. In ANH and ESB comedy was kept to a minimum and it stayed within the bounds of the universe. ROTJ added "wacky" deaths, Ewoks and annoying cinema references such as Chewie making the Tarzan call. Pointless slapstick was edited into the special edition. It came to a head with Jar Jar in TPM.

We thought we were past it with comedy going back to banter in TFA even though it was a bit too far in many cases. TLJ was filled with Slapstick from the opening battle, with Yo-Momma jokes and BB-8 doing the "leaking dam" routine with electricity.

Nothing breaks escapist fantasy quite like out of universe reference and physical comedy predicated on how unrealistic it is. Yet we're supposed to take the movie seriously when it treats everything like a joke.

Even as aged as it is, the Original Star Wars still managed a universe that despite it's fantastical elements feels lived in and real.

[Worffan101]

So this idea that The Last Jedi will go on to be acknowledged as a classic comes across like wishful thinking. If anything it feels like reaction has become more uniformly negative over the past year, and I personally just don't see the qualities that will make it stand out as a great film for years to come. Its pivotal place in the franchise and potential effect on the rest of the franchise also ensures that it will be a hated film for years unless JJ Abrams pulls off a miracle and somehow ties it all together in a satisfying way.

Well we have JJ's excellent record on creating satisfying conclusions to bolster our expectations. Hussah.

The ME3 comparison is an apt one as well since the damage it did to the franchise and the general good will given to the creators. When you do a follow up to something that divisive it needs not only to be good enough to stand on its own, it needs to be an apology for the mistakes made before. The death of Mass Effect with Andromeda should have been a lesson learned but everyone is still making the same mistakes.

Coming back to an earlier point that was discussed: Realism. One of the problems that crept into Star Wars in ROTJ, was slapstick or physical comedy. In ANH and ESB comedy was kept to a minimum and it stayed within the bounds of the universe. ROTJ added "wacky" deaths, Ewoks and annoying cinema references such as Chewie making the Tarzan call. Pointless slapstick was edited into the special edition. It came to a head with Jar Jar in TPM.

We thought we were past it with comedy going back to banter in TFA even though it was a bit too far in many cases. TLJ was filled with Slapstick from the opening battle, with Yo-Momma jokes and BB-8 doing the "leaking dam" routine with electricity.

Nothing breaks escapist fantasy quite like out of universe reference and physical comedy predicated on how unrealistic it is. Yet we're supposed to take the movie seriously when it treats everything like a joke.

Even as aged as it is, the Original Star Wars still managed a universe that despite it's fantastical elements feels lived in and real.

Those are good points. The Porgs REALLY seemed jarring in a lot of scenes, too.

[Karha of Honor]

So this idea that The Last Jedi will go on to be acknowledged as a classic comes across like wishful thinking. If anything it feels like reaction has become more uniformly negative over the past year, and I personally just don't see the qualities that will make it stand out as a great film for years to come. Its pivotal place in the franchise and potential effect on the rest of the franchise also ensures that it will be a hated film for years unless JJ Abrams pulls off a miracle and somehow ties it all together in a satisfying way.

Well we have JJ's excellent record on creating satisfying conclusions to bolster our expectations. Hussah.

The ME3 comparison is an apt one as well since the damage it did to the franchise and the general good will given to the creators. When you do a follow up to something that divisive it needs not only to be good enough to stand on its own, it needs to be an apology for the mistakes made before. The death of Mass Effect with Andromeda should have been a lesson learned but everyone is still making the same mistakes.

Coming back to an earlier point that was discussed: Realism. One of the problems that crept into Star Wars in ROTJ, was slapstick or physical comedy. In ANH and ESB comedy was kept to a minimum and it stayed within the bounds of the universe. ROTJ added "wacky" deaths, Ewoks and annoying cinema references such as Chewie making the Tarzan call. Pointless slapstick was edited into the special edition. It came to a head with Jar Jar in TPM.

We thought we were past it with comedy going back to banter in TFA even though it was a bit too far in many cases. TLJ was filled with Slapstick from the opening battle, with Yo-Momma jokes and BB-8 doing the "leaking dam" routine with electricity.

Nothing breaks escapist fantasy quite like out of universe reference and physical comedy predicated on how unrealistic it is. Yet we're supposed to take the movie seriously when it treats everything like a joke.

Even as aged as it is, the Original Star Wars still managed a universe that despite it's fantastical elements feels lived in and real.

Mass Effect would had been fine if Andromeda is not made by their C Team pushed out unfinished.

[Winter]

In regards to the comedy in Last, yeah, it went way to far IMO as it often went straight into parody territory. For example, the cloths steam dryer, there is no reason to have this scene and it's just there to get a quick laugh and that's it.

There's also the crank call, the Green milk scene, , and many other scenes during the casino planet like the Opera singer screaming as the space horses ran past her. It's very telling that the comic adaptation of Last cut all of these moments out and tried to keep things focused on the drama which Did help with the weaker plot points. But the problem is I still find these plot points to be weak. The most common defense with the who Finn and Rose subplot is that it's suppose to be pointless and I do get what the defenders mean by that but here's the issue I have with it, the whole thing is wasting time and is pointless Every Step of the Bloody Way!!!

Take this in contrast with another subplot that is made pointless but is often held in high regards by building up hype only to pull the rug right out from under you. Thor making his new hammer in Avengers: Infinity War.

The whole point of this subplot is to trick the viewers into thinking that the heroes have a chance in beating Thanos and at the end it seems to have worked when Thor gets the jump on the big bad. He killed the villain and the day is saved, only for Thanos to mock Thor by telling him he should have aimed for the head. And then the Snap which is then followed by the ending which has no music until the very end.

It hits you like a ton of rock to the gut as you come to see that Thor's subplot was entirely pointless and didn't save the day like you thought he would and the film gives you no time to be angry at Thor for not going for the head as half the cast starts to die.

Helping this subplot is that Thor makes progress every step of the way in his story. He manages to live through Thanos' attack, he is saved by the Guardians of the Galaxy, finds the Star Forge, is able to get it working and gets his new weapon. Every step gets him one step closer to his main goal yet none of it is easy and Thor almost dies while trying to achieve his goal. This then adds to the tragedy as, in the end, all that hard work, all that loss and all that suffering was all for nothing.

But what's even better then this is that nothing didn't come out of this as Thor got some really good character development and his relationship with Rocket was genuinely interesting and the two have great chemistry. Add it all up and you have a really good tragedy and like any great tragedy it gets you to care about the characters in the story so when the terrible things do happen you feel all the pain they're going through.

Take this on contrast with Finn and Rose plot, which achieves nothing, even during the plot itself. And one of the reasons this is so frustrating is that the film tends to go off on a number of tangents that do not advance the plot or the characters as it's all just treated as unimportant in the end. And Finn and Rose keep screwing up even the most simplest things. They find the cord breaker, (I prefer the EU's name for them being slicers) but they're arrested for parking violations. They free a bunch of Space Horses which achieves... nothing as the rich will just get new horses and fix all the damage soon after. They find a new cord breaker who is obviously evil and going to turn on them at the first opportunity (who was suppose to be Lando BTW and yes the plot point of him turning on the rebels was also going to be done by Lando). They then fail to save the rebels thanks to the obviously evil character and kill Phasma who hasn't done anything for two movies. And finally during the final battle Rose screws everyone over by choosing to save Finn over everyone else because she views him as more important the rest of the galaxy.

And before anyone comes in to say that she was saving him because the plan wouldn't have worked because the speeder crashing into the laser cannon wouldn't have stopped it 1) This is the same series were three planet busters have been destroyed by a few well placed torpedoes so it's entirely possible it could have worked. And 2) That's NOT Why Rose Stopped Finn. She did it to teach him a lesson about how to win the War they have to protect what they love instead of fighting what they hate WHICH IS WHAT FINN WAS ALREADY DOING!!!

So as far as the film itself is saying, Rose was not stopping Finn because it would have been a senseless sacrifice she was doing it because she didn't want her Crush to Die!!! And the last person in this series who put the well being of one person ahead of the rest of the galaxy ended up in a life support suit who tried to kill their loved one.

[clearspira]

I still hate the prequels and maintain my opinion that ME3 was great right up until the ending.

I doubt that TLJ will be remembered fondly, as a lot of the debate seems to be driven not by the film's actual merits but by one's political position, and I suspect that Episode IX will not make as much money as TFA or TLJ did.

The main problem with debating this damn movie is that pretty much every forum for debate I've run into up to and including private chats doesn't allow for any nuance. Either you're on the left, in which case the film is perfect and a work of subtle genius, or you're on the right, in which case the film is completely irredeemable because TEH WIMMINZ AND SJWS RUINED IT WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!! There's no room for "This thing had a decent idea but has deep-seated structural, character, and dialogue flaws that kill its only interesting subplot out of 3 and is further marred by tonal inconsistency, poor pacing that makes the film feel bloated, an exhaustingly self-serious score and tone, and the overuse of bad CGI", there's no room for "I like that they're making the gender balance a bit more even and giving Laura Dern some work, but they wrote Admiral Holdo like a soccer mom, didn't even give her a uniform, and then ruined the only genuinely interesting new character (Rose) by turning her into a cheap love interest for no clear reason" or "I think the stuff with Luke and Rey could've been really good with some touch-ups to the dialogue, more time to resonate, and actually watching movies other than A New Hope because it's like Luke lost all of his character development between 6 and 8".

And that pisses me the fuck off.

I'm on the right and I couldn't give a shit that there is a woman in it. And whilst we are on the subject, other female characters that I love: Buffy, Scully, Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor, Princess Leia, Padme Amidala, Kira Nerys, Uhura, Supergirl, Wonder Woman, Black Widow, Storm, Claire Redfield, Jill Valentine, Sarah Jane, Meryl Silverburgh, Starbuck... shall I continue?
I don't buy that women being in a film matters to any more than a minority of people, I think you are exaggerating the problem, I think the idea that men hate strong women is a recent idea invented by ideologues, and I think that none of the characters I mentioned would be as popular as they are without a sizeable amount of male fans.

If I hate Rey, its not because she's got a vagina, its because she is a Mary Sue. And frankly, I also think that Daisy Ridley is rather wooden which really does not help.

And on the note about balance, I can't be balanced because when I said earlier ''I have never seen a worse story told more poorly'' I mean it. It has plot holes layered on plot holes. When I can genuinely say that I have seen SyFy original movies made for a few thousand bucks that make more sense than you multi-million dollar blockbuster, YOU HAVE FAILED.