What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

[clearspira]

I still hate the prequels and maintain my opinion that ME3 was great right up until the ending.

I doubt that TLJ will be remembered fondly, as a lot of the debate seems to be driven not by the film's actual merits but by one's political position, and I suspect that Episode IX will not make as much money as TFA or TLJ did.

The main problem with debating this damn movie is that pretty much every forum for debate I've run into up to and including private chats doesn't allow for any nuance. Either you're on the left, in which case the film is perfect and a work of subtle genius, or you're on the right, in which case the film is completely irredeemable because TEH WIMMINZ AND SJWS RUINED IT WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!! There's no room for "This thing had a decent idea but has deep-seated structural, character, and dialogue flaws that kill its only interesting subplot out of 3 and is further marred by tonal inconsistency, poor pacing that makes the film feel bloated, an exhaustingly self-serious score and tone, and the overuse of bad CGI", there's no room for "I like that they're making the gender balance a bit more even and giving Laura Dern some work, but they wrote Admiral Holdo like a soccer mom, didn't even give her a uniform, and then ruined the only genuinely interesting new character (Rose) by turning her into a cheap love interest for no clear reason" or "I think the stuff with Luke and Rey could've been really good with some touch-ups to the dialogue, more time to resonate, and actually watching movies other than A New Hope because it's like Luke lost all of his character development between 6 and 8".

And that pisses me the fuck off.

Why should anyone care about gender balance in SW?

Because it's 2018™ or something.

Is this a serious answer or one mocking the premise that gender balance matters in Star Wars?

Allow me to mock the idea that gender balance in and of itself matters in fiction. What matters is quality over quantity, that's why the original trilogy with its ''bad'' gender balance is considered to be a classic, and the Disney trilogy isn't.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

When I've been on a right-leaning forum, pretty much any movie or show that I make a thread about has 2-3 people in the initial replies that remark that it is or turned too SJW for them.

[Worffan101]

Honestly, I don't think Ridley's wooden, I think it's just that Rey never says anything not directly related to the window dressing of the plot. She has remarkably little dialogue for a main character, especially compared to Luke, who gets multiple scenes where he shares his feelings with droids, argues about his family with Obi-Wan, wheedles with Han, etc., and that's just in the first movie! I don't feel like Rey has as much dialogue so far.

It also doesn't help that TLJ has at least one subplot too many, and that two of its three subplots are nonstop garbage and the only one that has any real impact is constantly sabotaged by Porg jokes, the unwanted intrusion of Kylo Ren in all the worst ways (DAMN but TLJ worships Kylo Ren, too), unnecessary "Luke is a jerk now" crap that is aping Empire but doesn't FEEL like Empire, and the constant digressions to the other two interminable subplots.

I mean, seriously, "Rey uncovers the deep truth that she really is nobody and what makes her special doesn't come from her illustrious bloodline or whatever but from HER and her own self and traits" is a legitimately good story in concept, just like "Luke faces the fact that the father he's idolized is actually a bad guy" was a great story concept. The problem is the execution is horrible.

And yes, I roll my eyes at people who go on about Rey being a "secret Skywalker" or something. I rag on Rian Johnson a lot, but spitting on the charred ruins of JJ's mystery box and saying "No, she's literally a nobody, you don't have to be from some special bloodline to be a cool Jedi" was absolutely the right decision on every level.

[Winter]

Honestly, I don't think Ridley's wooden, I think it's just that Rey never says anything not directly related to the window dressing of the plot. She has remarkably little dialogue for a main character, especially compared to Luke, who gets multiple scenes where he shares his feelings with droids, argues about his family with Obi-Wan, wheedles with Han, etc., and that's just in the first movie! I don't feel like Rey has as much dialogue so far.

It also doesn't help that TLJ has at least one subplot too many, and that two of its three subplots are nonstop garbage and the only one that has any real impact is constantly sabotaged by Porg jokes, the unwanted intrusion of Kylo Ren in all the worst ways (DAMN but TLJ worships Kylo Ren, too), unnecessary "Luke is a jerk now" crap that is aping Empire but doesn't FEEL like Empire, and the constant digressions to the other two interminable subplots.

I mean, seriously, "Rey uncovers the deep truth that she really is nobody and what makes her special doesn't come from her illustrious bloodline or whatever but from HER and her own self and traits" is a legitimately good story in concept, just like "Luke faces the fact that the father he's idolized is actually a bad guy" was a great story concept. The problem is the execution is horrible.

And yes, I roll my eyes at people who go on about Rey being a "secret Skywalker" or something. I rag on Rian Johnson a lot, but spitting on the charred ruins of JJ's mystery box and saying "No, she's literally a nobody, you don't have to be from some special bloodline to be a cool Jedi" was absolutely the right decision on every level.

Another issue with Rey the story concept of Rey being nobody is that both films take to long getting to that point It's not until the Last Jedi is almost over that she is forced to except that her parents are nobody and soon after that point she has next to no dialogue or really any Screen Time. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. After her fight with Ren Rey has, I think, 5 minutes of screen time and about 4 or 5 lines of dialogue in however long Last's three finales are.

I've compared the two before but Mara Jade is really a good example of what they Should have done with Rey as she has the most overall "Screen time" in the Thrawn Trilogy. Has her own personal goals outside of her relationship to the other characters and has the most character development of anyone in the Trilogy.

Also while Rey's story is uncovering the deep truth that she really is nobody and what makes her special doesn't come from her illustrious bloodline or whatever but from HER and her own self and traits, is a good idea for a story it doesn't make things very personal for her. By contrast Mara's story is basically the story of an abusive victim coming to terms with the fact she was abused and coming to except people who is her worth as a person.

Sure there's a intergalactic war going on but in the end TTT is really just about one person breaking free of an abusive parent and making a new family with the people who treat her like a person. And it's helped by just how well written she is that she manages to be a twat but still being likable. She's like the Indiana Jones of Star Wars if he was a former assassin.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The issue of Rey and her parents is a reverse condition of the Wayne murders in Batman.

[clearspira]

Honestly, I don't think Ridley's wooden, I think it's just that Rey never says anything not directly related to the window dressing of the plot. She has remarkably little dialogue for a main character, especially compared to Luke, who gets multiple scenes where he shares his feelings with droids, argues about his family with Obi-Wan, wheedles with Han, etc., and that's just in the first movie! I don't feel like Rey has as much dialogue so far.

It also doesn't help that TLJ has at least one subplot too many, and that two of its three subplots are nonstop garbage and the only one that has any real impact is constantly sabotaged by Porg jokes, the unwanted intrusion of Kylo Ren in all the worst ways (DAMN but TLJ worships Kylo Ren, too), unnecessary "Luke is a jerk now" crap that is aping Empire but doesn't FEEL like Empire, and the constant digressions to the other two interminable subplots.

I mean, seriously, "Rey uncovers the deep truth that she really is nobody and what makes her special doesn't come from her illustrious bloodline or whatever but from HER and her own self and traits" is a legitimately good story in concept, just like "Luke faces the fact that the father he's idolized is actually a bad guy" was a great story concept. The problem is the execution is horrible.

And yes, I roll my eyes at people who go on about Rey being a "secret Skywalker" or something. I rag on Rian Johnson a lot, but spitting on the charred ruins of JJ's mystery box and saying "No, she's literally a nobody, you don't have to be from some special bloodline to be a cool Jedi" was absolutely the right decision on every level.

So Rey has all of that power because without effort... just because? There is a reason why people want her parents to be somebody because it explains how she got so powerful in a single week whilst Luke ''son of the Chosen One'' Skywalker took four years (yeah, four years, that is how long the original trilogy was in-universe) and Anakin and Ren their whole lives training under a master.

This idea may have worked if not for the timescale. As it is, plot hole.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Well the whole definition of Anakin's power was immaculate conception.

[Winter]

Well the whole definition of Anakin's power was immaculate conception.

True, but even Anakin took years of training to get to Rey's level and even then he still lost he's fair share of fights. Rey has been in several fights and has lost all of one time, every other instance she wins every fight she's in. With Anakin, Luke and Mara they all got their butts handed to them at one point or another and had to learn the hard way that they weren't invincible along with suffering a personal tragedy that made them question themselves.

But Rey, she does get a number of emotionally vulnerable moments in Awakens which is good but in Last, the worst thing to happen to her is that she is realizes that Kylo Ren really is as irredeemable as everyone, including herself at the start of the film, said he was and that she has to defeat him. Yes she has to fight and kill the person who had murdered her surrogate father, put her best friend in a coma and tried to torture her. I'll give everyone a moment to recover from that shocking revelation.

Again, with Luke and Mara it was honestly a debate as to whether she would try and kill Luke and because we were given a chance to know her, and I mean REALLY Know her, helped to make her so much more compelling to a lot of fans, myself included.

Though in Rey's defense, had the film not dedicated to a pointless subplot on casino planet, the boring chase scene in Space and given her more to do character wise on Luke's island planet besides being used as mean to further explore Luke and Ren and the conflict between both characters she likely would have fared a LOT better then she did.

As mentioned before Rey has no real reason to want to redeem Kylo Ren. He did everything to hurt her in Awakens and yet all that is forgiven, forgotten or never mentioned in Last and Rey now feels she Must Redeem Ren, with her even calling him Ben, and starts acting as if they've known each other for years. And then is honestly shocked by him still being evil despite the fact that he himself admitted he was a monster and showed Zero signs of wanting to be redeemed.

It took Luke almost an entire year to just be friends with Mara and years later before the two started to fall in love and for her to call him by his first name. But with Rey all Ren needed to do was be a little nice to her and suddenly she's was practically in love with him? Even Luke remained cold around Vader while he was trying to redeem him as he did not forget all the horrible things he did. He just knew that Anakin was a good person before he fell to the Dark Side and wanted to redeem him because of that. It was Very Personal For Him! But because Rey's only personal connection to Ren is all the Horrible things he's done it makes it seem like she's just trying to redeem him because she has a crush on him.

And with Luke and Mara despite her hating him she hadn't done anything to him and was a ally in the fight against Thrawn so it would make sense for Luke to try and befriend her as there was no need to make another enemy. He saw the good in her due to her loyalty to Karrde and learning that his actions are what caused her life to go to crap he is more trying to make amends then anything else.

[CharlesPhipps]

Again, Mara and Rey are two totally different characters. They don't have any sort of similar role.

It's useless to compare them.

And I say that in large part because I'd love Mara to show up later in the EU.

[clearspira]

Well the whole definition of Anakin's power was immaculate conception.

True, but even Anakin took years of training to get to Rey's level and even then he still lost he's fair share of fights. Rey has been in several fights and has lost all of one time, every other instance she wins every fight she's in. With Anakin, Luke and Mara they all got their butts handed to them at one point or another and had to learn the hard way that they weren't invincible along with suffering a personal tragedy that made them question themselves.

But Rey, she does get a number of emotionally vulnerable moments in Awakens which is good but in Last, the worst thing to happen to her is that she is realizes that Kylo Ren really is as irredeemable as everyone, including herself at the start of the film, said he was and that she has to defeat him. Yes she has to fight and kill the person who had murdered her surrogate father, put her best friend in a coma and tried to torture her. I'll give everyone a moment to recover from that shocking revelation.

Again, with Luke and Mara it was honestly a debate as to whether she would try and kill Luke and because we were given a chance to know her, and I mean REALLY Know her, helped to make her so much more compelling to a lot of fans, myself included.

Though in Rey's defense, had the film not dedicated to a pointless subplot on casino planet, the boring chase scene in Space and given her more to do character wise on Luke's island planet besides being used as mean to further explore Luke and Ren and the conflict between both characters she likely would have fared a LOT better then she did.

As mentioned before Rey has no real reason to want to redeem Kylo Ren. He did everything to hurt her in Awakens and yet all that is forgiven, forgotten or never mentioned in Last and Rey now feels she Must Redeem Ren, with her even calling him Ben, and starts acting as if they've known each other for years. And then is honestly shocked by him still being evil despite the fact that he himself admitted he was a monster and showed Zero signs of wanting to be redeemed.

It took Luke almost an entire year to just be friends with Mara and years later before the two started to fall in love and for her to call him by his first name. But with Rey all Ren needed to do was be a little nice to her and suddenly she's was practically in love with him? Even Luke remained cold around Vader while he was trying to redeem him as he did not forget all the horrible things he did. He just knew that Anakin was a good person before he fell to the Dark Side and wanted to redeem him because of that. It was Very Personal For Him! But because Rey's only personal connection to Ren is all the Horrible things he's done it makes it seem like she's just trying to redeem him because she has a crush on him.

And with Luke and Mara despite her hating him she hadn't done anything to him and was a ally in the fight against Thrawn so it would make sense for Luke to try and befriend her as there was no need to make another enemy. He saw the good in her due to her loyalty to Karrde and learning that his actions are what caused her life to go to crap he is more trying to make amends then anything else.

I agree with Red Letter Media: the ending of this film should have been Ren holding out his hand to Rey, with the final line being ''join me''.
Boom. Cliffhanger. And a damn good one. Let me ask those of you here who actually like this film; did the sight of that boy holding up his broom like a lightsaber and the ten or so remaining Resistance members celebrating on the Falcon pump you up in the least to see the next film? Say what you like about Awakens, but Rey handing Luke that lightsaber was packed with possibilities. You wanted to know what happened after that music started to play.