What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

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Worffan101
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Re: What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

Post by Worffan101 »

clearspira wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:06 pm I agree with Red Letter Media: the ending of this film should have been Ren holding out his hand to Rey, with the final line being ''join me''.
Boom. Cliffhanger. And a damn good one. Let me ask those of you here who actually like this film; did the sight of that boy holding up his broom like a lightsaber and the ten or so remaining Resistance members celebrating on the Falcon pump you up in the least to see the next film? Say what you like about Awakens, but Rey handing Luke that lightsaber was packed with possibilities. You wanted to know what happened after that music started to play.
Damn, that's a good point.

It's got a theme, sequel hook, and implicitly says that the other two garbage plots were meaningless. :D
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Winter
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Re: What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

Post by Winter »

CharlesPhipps wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:54 pm Again, Mara and Rey are two totally different characters. They don't have any sort of similar role.

It's useless to compare them.

And I say that in large part because I'd love Mara to show up later in the EU.
I agree that their different characters but not that they don't have similar roles as the two have quite a bit in common. Both are the main protagonist of their respective trilogies, both have a mysterious past, are pretty much the apprentice to Luke have a weird relationship with someone they otherwise hate but grow close to.

The key differences here is Mara zigs everywhere Rey zags. Mara is a more active protagonist as she is the one who movies the plot forward the most in TTT while Rey is just sorta reacting to events around her, Mara's past is revealed to us whereas Rey's is still largely unknown, Luke doesn't teach more in the ways of the Force or the Jedi but rather in the way of people skills while with Rey he doesn't really teach her anything and Mara hatred with Luke is something she really has to overcome throughout the Trilogy while Rey forgives Ren after a few conversations in less time then it takes to heat up a pizza.

I feel comparing Rey to Mara is a great way of going over why I find the latter to be so much weaker as a character then the former. Mara's character was given more focus and development while Rey was made to much of a mystery without a planned payoff in Awakens and was then used more as a means to flesh Luke and Ren out.

One of the best points to compare these two and why one falls short of the other, is when both go to save the person they see as their enemy during the middle chapter, (Luke with Mara and Ren with Rey). The key difference here is Mara is going to get Luke because he's, ironically, the only person she can trust and she's doing it to save her surrogate father from her own mistake. Rey is going to try and redeem Ren because, he was nice to her while she was training with Luke.

One is more character driven and adds layers to said character by showing that she is willing to work with someone she hates to save someone she loves to fix her own mistake. The other is more plot driven as Rey has to be on Snoke's ship for the final battle, makes less sense the more you think about it, actually detracts from Rey's character and is really there more as a means to flesh out Ren.

As for Mara showing up in later in the EU, that I have mixed feelings about as I Do want my favorite character to show up but I haven't exactly been impressed with how the Disney Era has handled the characters from the Lucas Era. The one who has come off the best is Grand Admiral Thrawn and even then I have some issues with how he was done, though admittedly less then the characters in the films but still.

I'm worried that if they brought her back they might try to make her less of a jerk or to much of a jerk or make her a pale shadow of who she was in the Legends continuity. Mara is the kind of character you Really need to put in effort for and I don't feel they've put in that much effort with their own original characters.

Mind you if they did bring her in I would want to see Mara mock Rey, Finn and Ren in someway as that would be so cathartic.
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

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I wasn't pumped when the kid held the broomstick, but I am curious to the point of intrigue as to where this arc is going, and that's kinda been lacking in my eyes (all this as I said in my initial post in this forum). At the end of Force Awakens I wasn't really looking through an objective lens the possibilities of where the story was going, I just thought the ball was gonna start rolling with Luke. I mean I felt Han had a strong enough presence, and it's been known for a while that IRL Ford kinda wanted Han to just get axed already, so this still made sense in my mind that the original characters would still have centrality in the events (though Leia really didn't do much in Force Awakens). But that's not where the story went lol. Now to be more than fair, I was very interested in Luke's outlook on The Force and where his mind actually was at concerning Kylo Ren, but ugh his anti-involvement until the tail end is just ugh. It's like with Misty Knight in BOTH Luke Cage and Iron Fist seasons 2 where she so often is like, "you need to Stop doing what the basic premise of this show expects you to do because the boring NYPD that I'm constantly side-stepping myself is trying to investigate" (though I did really like her doing that in season 1 tbh). I want to see Luke kick the first order's ass because he's supposed to be in some way special being the oldest ever padawan (like Billy Madison or something (jk)). And to be fair again, he does give us that at the very end. He is smart, and he is very humble in terms of Jedi power, which is consistent as far as I can tell from the original trilogy where he seems to have to be much more tactful handling situations than the other Jedis with the bigger movie production budgets have to be when they can force jump and be acrobatic. And then Snoke just kinda dies and Kylo Ren does a 360 and just keeps on being an ass. So, expectations subverted yes, but it's like was it so necessary to bait me like they did?!?
..What mirror universe?
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

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Winter wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:27 am As mentioned before Rey has no real reason to want to redeem Kylo Ren. He did everything to hurt her in Awakens and yet all that is forgiven, forgotten or never mentioned in Last and Rey now feels she Must Redeem Ren, with her even calling him Ben, and starts acting as if they've known each other for years. And then is honestly shocked by him still being evil despite the fact that he himself admitted he was a monster and showed Zero signs of wanting to be redeemed.
Anyways, my take is that Rey understands what happened between Luke and Ben, so she has a sense of where he came from in terms of good guy to bad guy.
..What mirror universe?
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Riedquat
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Re: What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

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Slash Gallagher wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:50 pm
Mass Effect would had been fine if Andromeda is not made by their C Team pushed out unfinished.
Andromeda was merely "meh". Passed the time OK, wasn't much good but didn't do much to annoy me either, unlike 3.
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Winter
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Re: What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

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BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:59 am Anyways, my take is that Rey understands what happened between Luke and Ben, so she has a sense of where he came from in terms of good guy to bad guy.
But even with that Why does she Want to Redeem Ren? Rey has no personal connection to Ren other then the Horrible things he did to her in Awakens. With Luke and Vader, Luke learned that Vader and his father was one and the same and after being told what a good person his father was by Obi-Wan Luke wanted to redeem the good person his father was.

With Mara in TTT the reason she starts to change her opinion about Luke is because her views on him were forced upon her by the Emperor and he spends all of his time trying to befriend her. You could argue that the same thing is happening with Rey and Ren but, again, Ren was a twat in the first film who hurt or killed people she came to love, only for her to forgive him once he said that He was the victim. Also, it took Luke and Mara almost a Year in universe, to become friends while it took Rey less then 10 minutes to feel that Ren was worth risking torture and death for.

I'm not saying you're wrong this is just my opinion and the reason this bugs me is that Rey is given no Personal reason to want to redeem Ren while Luke in the Original Trilogy and Mara in TTT are given Very personal reasons to want to redeem others or themselves respectfully.
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

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Winter wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:56 am
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:59 am Anyways, my take is that Rey understands what happened between Luke and Ben, so she has a sense of where he came from in terms of good guy to bad guy.
But even with that Why does she Want to Redeem Ren? Rey has no personal connection to Ren other then the Horrible things he did to her in Awakens. With Luke and Vader, Luke learned that Vader and his father was one and the same and after being told what a good person his father was by Obi-Wan Luke wanted to redeem the good person his father was.

With Mara in TTT the reason she starts to change her opinion about Luke is because her views on him were forced upon her by the Emperor and he spends all of his time trying to befriend her. You could argue that the same thing is happening with Rey and Ren but, again, Ren was a twat in the first film who hurt or killed people she came to love, only for her to forgive him once he said that He was the victim. Also, it took Luke and Mara almost a Year in universe, to become friends while it took Rey less then 10 minutes to feel that Ren was worth risking torture and death for.

I'm not saying you're wrong this is just my opinion and the reason this bugs me is that Rey is given no Personal reason to want to redeem Ren while Luke in the Original Trilogy and Mara in TTT are given Very personal reasons to want to redeem others or themselves respectfully.
I don't think it's that obscure really. Where you're digging for character melodrama, I kinda just see it in her character. She's become involved in this conflict, learned very suddenly and intensely about the force, established a mentor who happens to be the father of Ren. Whereas at the start of Force Awakens it is black and white as she is being subjected to the tyranny of the First Order and being chased, her understanding of the situation has a lot of dimension by the time she has another weirdly force occurence in the form of an intimate communing w/ Ren that I don't think we as an audience are even that familiar with in the lore. Key to that [her] understanding, like I said earlier, was learning about what happened between Luke and Ben and also being of the mind that Luke's apathy is rather contemptible.
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Worffan101
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Re: What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

Post by Worffan101 »

Riedquat wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:13 am
Slash Gallagher wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:50 pm
Mass Effect would had been fine if Andromeda is not made by their C Team pushed out unfinished.
Andromeda was merely "meh". Passed the time OK, wasn't much good but didn't do much to annoy me either, unlike 3.
I felt Andromeda had DEEP problems. Liked Vetra and Drack, Jaal was OK, hated Liam, Cora could not have been more bland, Peebee was trying too hard. Game itself was clearly rushed, combat was fun but like Inquisition the story/content ratio is WAY off and most of the missions are boring as hell.
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Re: What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

Post by Wargriffin »

Look I think ME3 did something most people don't want to admit... It made people take a long hard look at BW's writing style and suddenly The near flawless narratives... suddenly have alot of fucking holes

I mean most would accept the statement ME3 was fine till the last 15 minutes... No it wasn't the warning signs were all there in the first 15 minutes with the kid.

I mean most can forgive the BW doesn't make memorable villains that are gonna be held up in the RPG Echelons due to BW's style basically revolving around being a player power fantasy... and a Good Villain requires the player not being able to just pick the option that lets them win.

BW has never had good boss battle mechanics and due to always wanting the player to feel like the #1 badass the villains tend not to be very clever

'Kai leng is basically only a 'threat' cause the story allows him to escape, since he is never once portrayed as your equal, which is a shame since Kai had the potential too


ME3 ultimately betrayed this notion of player power when basically the ending is... The Bad guys Boss gives up for dubious reasoning and lets you pick the ending cause he's a nice guy
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

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What is this, some sort of ME3 thread???
..What mirror universe?
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