What is Your Opinion on The Last Jedi?

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

It's telling that even in a movie about failure, the only character who isn't allowed to fail is the main protagonist.

Not so sure about that. Even though on the surface, Rey appears to kick six kinds of butt, she failed in her primary mission: to retrieve Luke. The training sequence, the mirror pool, etc just wasted vital time as the Resistance was bleeding out.

The movie wants us to believe that Luke was redeemed and that his light show at the end inspired the galaxy. Even if I'm not totally sold on that (he didn't kill anyone, only a dozen Resistance people saw it, and holograms exist in Star Wars anyway), it's not something I would pin on her. The onus for Luke's inaction is on him first, and after that I see it as Leia's responsibility for sending Rey instead of going herself.

A couple people have tried to convince me that her naivety with Kylo Ren counts as failure, but I don't buy that either. The mission resulted in the death of the most powerful (as far as we know) Dark Side user in the galaxy, and made a noble attempt to turn Kylo despite his murdering her mentor a couple days earlier.

This is what is missing from Rey, she goes through a traumatic event in one movie and in the next it all means nothing as she almost instantly forgives Ren for every horrible thing he's done as it it was nothing.

No time having past between the two movies causes a lot of problems, both in terms of characterization and the situation around the galaxy. I guess they had to at least start the movie with Rey's arrival, given the cliffhanger, but it was poorly handled.

Well as I was saying earlier I feel like her motivations are decently established. I think she has principles when trying to deal with Luke, but as far as clarity she's a bit ambitious. She's needing to get better at it, understand it more, and find meaning to her life through her past.

I don't think that's a bad motivation for a character, but wanting to belong somewhere and have a family is pretty thin as a sole weakness. It's like picking the one weakness that would endear her more to an audience in a family film. And again, it's not something that ever really costs her, and it's something she gets past in a matter of days.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I don't think that's a bad motivation for a character, but wanting to belong somewhere and have a family is pretty thin as a sole weakness. It's like picking the one weakness that would endear her more to an audience in a family film. And again, it's not something that ever really costs her, and it's something she gets past in a matter of days.

Yeah I don't really find much in her way as faults. Just instead struggles, as I'm getting at. Not really faults per say, but it's kinda like the essential subject and verb required in drama. I'm not exactly sure you need faults.

[AllanO]

I liked the movie and even think it was a good movie.

Like I liked Luke distracting the first order by force projecting himself across the Galaxy, I thought it was clever and neat and played off things he said earlier in the movie (about how he could not just defeat the First Order laser sword in hand etc.) I thought it played on them interesting ways (the earlier statement was strictly true but wrong in spirit etc.) and reflected growth and change in the character and home truths like the greatest victory is the battle not fought and that all warfare is deception etc. Likewise with many of the other twists and turns in the movie I thought even if they did not necessarily accomplish much in terms of plot points they were good characterization, growth, ideas to play with etc.

Did some of the space battle stuff seem unrealistic and contrived? Yes. Did some of the humour fall flat or feel out of place? Sure. Some bits dragged and other bits went by too fast. But because what I saw as the main narrative continued to click along, these errors and problems did not spoil the movie much.

I think it was actually good because while it was hardly perfect I thought it was generally well put together and had the potential to satisfy on various emotional and intellectual levels. Hard to say whether being good and being enjoyed by me are separate questions, but I tend to think it makes some sense. I did not enjoy Catcher in the Rye much, but it has certainly stuck with since reading it in high school and I think I have some insight into why it is considered a good book and so on. So whether or not I enjoy something there seems to be a question to be asked about how good it is separate from that...

In terms of reactions to the movie, lots of people find it a unalloyed perfection which seems odd to me and others find it a disreputable failure on all counts which again seems odd, and lots of points in between. The very different terms in which different people saw the same film puts me in mind of Obi-Wan's statement:
“Luke, you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

Hopefully I am not just being flip and just dismissing people's reactions with a platitudes.

The movie was full of situations where things appear going in direction A and then there is a twist and things are going in direction B (and possibly even a later twist where we head to C and so on). Clearly a big danger here is that the audience buys more into A then B and so is unconvinced by the move, or they never bought into A enough so they get no satisfaction from the turn to B. Perhaps this helps explain the wide divergence in opinion of the movie, since what will make you buy into A or B etc. is your expectations, beliefs (about the characters what the story should be and do on), in other words one's point of view. It would be odd if everyone reacted the same way to such things.

So when I see a lot of arguments against the movie they tend to me to depend on premises I just would not take as a starting point. Although I can not say they are wrong or whatever, they are just not ones I can start from them.

So some start from a premise of what a Star Wars movie (a Star Wars movie should have X sort of thing happen) is or what the character of Luke is (Luke would not become a bitter old hermit), that I just don't buy the starting point so it fails to go through for me. There can even be disagreement about more abstract things like whats a deconstruction or criticism versus an exploration and celebration.

Of course it can be a lot simpler, just about simple priorities and reactions, I have a friend who did not like the movie just because he found the humour out of place and pervaisevely so. I certainly think some of the humour was out of place, so I can understand his reaction to an extent, I just can't see it as that big a priority. Also if someone speaks in absolutes (having X at all is bad, like having any humour or any contrived and unreleastic space battles) about things I tend to think they are missing that other movies they like (the original triology etc.) have those things also, and probably it is that Last Jedi failed to engage them in some other ways that are at stake.

And sometimes I just think people are just wrong, so I watched a video criticizing the movie by saying the writers had just written themselves into a corner and then the appearent reversal was them escaping by deus ex machina. Without access to writing notes or mind reading powers I can't know for sure but I am pretty sure the reversals were planned. One might find them unconvincing, uninteresting etc. but that is different from saying they were actual stumbled into during the writing process plus the thing they are complaining about.

Anyway the point is that while we make our best attempts, there is no definitive analysis of a movie because we all come at it from different points of view. Even if there were a definitive take on the quality of the movie that would not dictate whether you enjoyed it, a lot depends on things like taste. People seem to lose sight of these things and have a failure of imagination when discussing this movie...

[clearspira]

The movie wants us to believe that Luke was redeemed and that his light show at the end inspired the galaxy. Even if I'm not totally sold on that (he didn't kill anyone, only a dozen Resistance people saw it, and holograms exist in Star Wars anyway), it's not something I would pin on her. The onus for Luke's inaction is on him first, and after that I see it as Leia's responsibility for sending Rey instead of going herself.

Plot hole. The Resistance have no proof that any of this happened, they have no proof that Luke was still alive, they have no proof that Luke was anything else than a hologram, and the First Order themselves are not going to spread this story. The idea that those kids on Canto Bite (however you spell it) would have heard of this story much less be inspired by it just does not make sense.
And why are those kids celebrating the news that the Resistance survived anyway? The First Order only took over the galaxy A FEW DAYS AGO. These kids were just as much slaves under the Republic as they are under the First Order, so why do they care if there is a movement to bring back the Republic? They did nothing for these kids but sit and watch, just as the previous Republic did nothing but sit and watch Tatooine.

[Winter]

So I have a question, for all the talk about how the main theme of Last is that of Failure is there any real consequences to the actions of any of the character mistakes? Poe throws a mutiny and his plan nearly gets everyone killed and yet he's made the default leader of the Resistance after making a speech about beating the First Order. Finn and Rose fail again and again and yet no one ever gets angry at them even though they're the ones who nearly got everyone killed. Rose chooses Finn over everyone else and is never called out on it and may even end with Finn because of her selfish choice.

Rey fails to redeem Ren but is able to get Luke out of retirement and Ren is honestly such an incompetent leader that it's unlikely that Rey failing to redeem him in Last will really have any down side to it. The only characters who's actions have any real consequence is Luke and Ren. Luke's out of character moment caused him to lose everything he had fought for and Ren's own stupidity cost him to lose the only person in the First Order who was even slightly competent, has lost the Resistance and likely the respect of all those who follow him now by still acting like a petulant child who throws tantrums every time things go even Slightly wrong.

I know I keep harking on this point but this was something The Thrawn Trilogy avoided as every mistake and success the heroes and villains had all had long lasting consequences. Mara choosing to go behind Karrde's back and try to make a deal with Thrawn resulted in him getting capture by Thrawn, Mara going to Luke for help to save Karrde and then forcing the two of them to pick a side and stick with it. It also forced Thrawn by putting him on the clock making locating the Katana Fleet before Karrde told the Republic.

And all of this is the result of one bad choice by one person, born out of arrogance, that changed the course of the entire war. And this choice actually makes sense given Mara's character and were she is at in her character arc. At this point she is still under the impression that she knows better then anyone else and that she can solve the problem even when Karrde knows that doing something like this will not end well for them. But she does it anyway and it forces her to change.

Meanwhile, Rey's choice to try and redeem Ren makes little to no sense and changes nothing. Rey and Ren were enemies at the start of the film and they end up remaining enemies at the end of Last for pretty much the same reasons. At the end of Dark Force Mara had gone from hating Luke and wanting him dead to trusting him and questioning that hatred she held against him.

If failure is the main theme of the film then reflect that in the story itself otherwise what is the point of it. Poe starts off the film as a squad leader, gets demoted for getting his squad killed and then at the end of the film is made the leader of the Resistance despite having learned NOTHING. Finn and Rose start the film and two people who barely know anything about each other and end the film barely knowing anything about each other and nothing they do matters in the end. Rey goes from hating Ren, to being pretty much in love with him, only to go right back to hating him.

At the end of Last it feels like nothing has changed, except that everyone now has fewer ships then when they started. With Dark Force the stalemate between the Republic and the Empire was broken and the odds were now against our heroes and all because Mara made one mistake that eventually ended up with her in a coma.

[Wargriffin]

Cause Rian did not Know What he wants to say, Its almost like he himself knew he wasn't getting another movie so he crammed EVERYTHING into this one movie

He wants to heckle you for being trapped in nostalgia, That those old heroes aren't worthy of praise then turn around and act like its a passing of the torch from the old generation to the new... while making the New Generation foolish and reckless and only worthy of Rebuke and having done nothing to earn that moment and needed the old heroes to save them.

He wants to smear the WEAK EASILY COWED MASSES for not standing up! then act like them being motivated to fight is the only right and just thing.

He wants the First Order to be incompetent cartoons easily fooled by a whose on First gag but they are in fact super competent in that they took over the Galaxy even as Their leadership and Main fleet was rip to shreds by the equivalent of a state militia but WAIT NO THEY'RE IN FACT A SUPERSTITIOUS AND COWARDLY LOT.

I may hate the "Force is relative, There is no Dark/Light" view but if you're gonna push it stick to it... NOPE Kylo is A DARKSIDER TRUE AND TRUE he can't think beyond complete conquest. That would have been a subversive ending... The good guys only survive cause Kylo shows them mercy, would have paid off Rey's whole he has some good in him left along with the scne where he refuses to fire on his mother.
Nope Rey's just a slave to her vagina's needs and Kylo's backstab you could see coming a mile away

The lack of a consistent Tone, hurts the story's flow where the moments of humor seem to come from a completely different movie

The Lack of actually saying something hurts TLJ story cause you're wondering what message its trying to send other then I'm trying real hard not to rip off ESB


Say what you want about Lucas the moment someone told him the Humor in Episode I didn't work

HE dialed it back 'Hell probably gave one of the funnier moments with Obi at the bar in EP2... GOOD GAWD ALMIGHTY I'M SAYING GOOD THINGS ABOUT EPISODE 2
______


Rey suffers the Same problem Jyn Erso suffered in Rouge One, She should be much more interesting then she is but she acts more like the Narrative ping pong /audience viewpoint character for all the more interesting characters to bounce off of.

[Winter]

You know from everything I've seen in regards to George Lucas, he seems to take criticism about his writing very well. As you said, when he was told that fans didn't like the comedy in Episode 1, he dialed it back along with the politics. And after Episode 2, when fans said they didn't like the romance he also dialed that back and put more focus on the Anakin and Obi-Wan relationship which fans wanted to see more of.

And as The Clone Wars was being released he took on the role of creative consultant but also was the one who kept insisting that everyone to read up on fan comments while the show was still on the air which eventually led to the series really coming into it's own. The only criticisms that Lucas seemed to role his eyes at was when everyone was telling him that the new digital technique was something that would never work when he started using said new filming techniques and in this case, seeing that most film makers today have ended up using these same techniques I'd say that the jokes on everyone else.

The Disney Era seems more interested in appeasing fans even as it tries to subvert but pulls back as soon as possible. The Lucas Era could honestly be described as a series of passion projects made by people who really Loved SW and wanted to explore every inch of that Galaxy far, far away. The Disney Era feels more like Star Trek Into Darkness in that their more interested in being big budget pop corn flicks that play up the Nostalgia of the series and anything "new" they add are often something that the series has already done, and done better in my honest opinion.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The Disney Era seems more interested in appeasing fans even as it tries to subvert but pulls back as soon as possible. The Lucas Era could honestly be described as a series of passion projects made by people who really Loved SW and wanted to explore every inch of that Galaxy far, far away. The Disney Era feels more like Star Trek Into Darkness in that their more interested in being big budget pop corn flicks that play up the Nostalgia of the series and anything "new" they add are often something that the series has already done, and done better in my honest opinion.

I'm not really sure what else to expect when they adopt a franchise like this. George Lucas is very much not a popcorn flick kind of guy and just became too much of an overlord considerably alienated from his fanbase. Disney wants nothing but to impress people with their expansive brand approach. In a sense I felt like they were doing much the opposite of what Lucas did.

[Wargriffin]

The problem was GL was so utterly vilified due to the PT to an unreasonable degree by the fandom.

Similar to how the PT was overhyped the Backlash was overblown



You know why Clone Wars was celebrated like it was cause GL let up and let other people into the creative process instead of being the lone Baron but He still had a stake in its creative process... but the notion that GL can create anything you like post PT is considered heresy by that chunk of the Fandom because they are that unforgiving

Remember the sudden surge of "MR Abrams THIS is how you Star wars" videos which were utterly pretentious and was basically them saying they wanted ANH 2.0

then complained they got ANH 2.0

Hell incorporating aspects from the Legend brand was the agenda during CW...Hell before the merger the talk was basically setting up the building blocks for the Thrawn Trilogy and a shout out to Kyle

Something he didn't Do during the PT process due to basically always putting himself into a terrible time crunch so he couldn't ask for help.

[Karha of Honor]

The Disney Era seems more interested in appeasing fans even as it tries to subvert but pulls back as soon as possible. The Lucas Era could honestly be described as a series of passion projects made by people who really Loved SW and wanted to explore every inch of that Galaxy far, far away. The Disney Era feels more like Star Trek Into Darkness in that their more interested in being big budget pop corn flicks that play up the Nostalgia of the series and anything "new" they add are often something that the series has already done, and done better in my honest opinion.

I'm not really sure what else to expect when they adopt a franchise like this. George Lucas is very much not a popcorn flick kind of guy and just became too much of an overlord considerably alienated from his fanbase. Disney wants nothing but to impress people with their expansive brand approach. In a sense I felt like they were doing much the opposite of what Lucas did.

I think Lucas is a failed popcorn flick kind of guy. The Prequels have plenty of low brow idiocy.