Areas where you'd respectfully disagree with Chuck

[Yukaphile]

Not defending the Duras family, as they are very much corrupt to the core, though that again ties to what I was saying about "simplistic morality" Trek writers often employ... sometimes.

I would argue Gowron was NOT a decent leader at all. He was a good compromise to the Romulan-backed Duras and the stagnation that had formed under K'mpec, but this is the same guy who bribed K'Ehleyr, again murdered a restrained opponent, stole the credit from the Federation, led an unprovoked invasion against the Cardassians simply on suspicions they were being infiltrated by the Founders, etc, etc... honestly, sabotaging Martok is right in line with his past history.

Well, poparena's review covers it way more thoroughly than me. I tend to agree with his conclusions.

[Karha of Honor]

I do believe it was Moore. Others commented Moore REALLY wanted to push the "Prophets as religious" idea and got ingrained in it. Moore strikes me as... well, a polite version of the nerd stereotype. And that sadly includes the misogyny.

He is a former US Marine.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I do believe it was Moore. Others commented Moore REALLY wanted to push the "Prophets as religious" idea and got ingrained in it. Moore strikes me as... well, a polite version of the nerd stereotype. And that sadly includes the misogyny.

Well, again, my friend's recent first viewing led him to conclude the Duras sisters had legit reasons to wanna seize power because they couldn't do so lawfully because of that bullshit rule.

No offence to your friend, but just because you may be part of an oppressed class doesn't make you in the right. And seeing as these two would later go on to be complicit in the deaths of millions of innocent people at Veridian if it wasn't for timey-wimey nonsense, and Toral would go on to try and kill Worf over Kahless's bat'leth and thus proving himself to be a backstabbing unappreciative prick, I find no reason why I would back these three over Gowron who was a decent leader until he got jealous of Martok.

I get what you're saying in response, but I do get what Yuka's saying at least as far as understanding the Duras sisters as antagonists. Obviously no they're not preemptively redeemed by the regressed Klingon order. The Klingons are written regressives on purpose and were only somewhat less adversarial by the time of TNG timeline, not even going so far as having strong ties to the Federation or anything. We aren't meant to side with Gowron just because killing is just part of their happy hour unbarred ritual. We're supposed to understand that the Duras sisters are trying to administer disastrous fucking chaos between federations, and that Worf's disgusted by it either way. The Klingon Empire's just a stubborn clusterfuck at the center of it.

[Artabax]

Clan Duras are always traitors and spies. Gowron is a Patriot thoughout the show until that one episode when his character was trashed out of nowhere.

[Yukaphile]

Nah, it wasn't out of nowhere. Gowron was the typical slimy Klingon politician. He had a few moments, but otherwise, he wasn't honorable, just looking out for himself. He was more pragmatic than anything, but even that could be tested and fall on its ass.

[clearspira]

Another thread on here about Keiko's mum got me thinking: as funny as the joke from ''Move Along Home'' was, it really is not that unlikely that she would have Keiko in her sixties is it? McCoy was a 137 in ''Encounter At Farpoint''. Picard was 74 in Nemesis and presumably 104 in his new series if it remains as thirty years in the future. Archer is still alive in the 23rd century according to both ''Star Trek 2009'' and ''In the Mirror Darkly'' so that must make him a 100 and something easily.
And if anything, considering that there are plenty of people hitting 100 today in the real world, surely anyone from a place with the Fed's advanced medical technology, comfortable living and ability to replicate anything you need or want should realistically be hitting 140 as a life expectancy at this point. Sixty is not old in the 24th century, its middle age.

On a side note, this reminds me of one episode of DS9 where Bashir is lamenting hitting 30. Um... by your standards you have barely begun life at this point mate. Quit your complaining.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Another thread on here about Keiko's mum got me thinking: as funny as the joke from ''Move Along Home'' was, it really is not that unlikely that she would have Keiko in her sixties is it? McCoy was a 137 in ''Encounter At Farpoint''. Picard was 74 in Nemesis and presumably 104 in his new series if it remains as thirty years in the future. Archer is still alive in the 23rd century according to both ''Star Trek 2009'' and ''In the Mirror Darkly'' so that must make him a 100 and something easily.
And if anything, considering that there are plenty of people hitting 100 today in the real world, surely anyone from a place with the Fed's advanced medical technology, comfortable living and ability to replicate anything you need or want should realistically be hitting 140 as a life expectancy at this point. Sixty is not old in the 24th century, its middle age.

On a side note, this reminds me of one episode of DS9 where Bashir is lamenting hitting 30. Um... by your standards you have barely begun life at this point mate. Quit your complaining.

I don't think it's impossible that replicators can make eggs, but I don't find myself pursuing the idea that much. Plus you're breaching on some divinely measured complications here, though the communistic society that's been established might eschew that.

[pilight]

Say what you want about Hitler, he did kill Hitler

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Say what you want about Hitler, he did kill Hitler

Yes and he also lost the war.

[Yukaphile]

Can we either stop this thread or get it back on track?

Here's an area I disagree with Chuck. I think Janeway isn't a great supervillain. She's just crazy.